Wendy L. 00:10

Hello everyone. I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and Chief Shopper at WSL Strategic Retail. And this is Future Shop. You know, it's going to be a good edition today, because I'm already laughing. My guest is, Gina Zilleox. She is the Senior Director category management at Glanbia Performance Nutrition, Welcome, Gina. How are you?

Gina 00:30

Thank you for having me. I'm good. You know, it's like you said, it's been a long day, but we're laughing, but we're gonna have some fun today.

Wendy L. 00:37

That's it, right? We're gonna have protein and do a little stretching, and we'll be ready to take on, take on the world. Well, well, Gina, yeah. Gina and I first met in Miami, which was, I don't know, it feels like a lifetime ago, was that may or January or sometime? Yes, yes,

Gina 01:25

sometimes old friends at

Wendy L. 01:28

the at the Nielsen IQ C360 Summit, where we shared a stage on a panel talking about growth in these crazy times. And what struck me about Gina at the time was that she was a straight shooter. She had a unique view and experience in the category management field, and I do feel that she speaks truth to power, which, of course, is exactly what I liked about her from the moment we said hello.

Before we get started today, don't forget just that usual nagging reminder. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. Thanks to all of you who have it's been great. It's great to know you're there wherever you are in the world. So click Subscribe wherever your podcasts. Spotify Apple, our website, we love to know you're there. Thanks for doing that. Now let's get on to the episode.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about you? Because you've had a very interesting background from I think of you as health and before that candy, which is particularly exciting, and before that data, which is sort of candy to some of this. So tell us a little bit about you, and then tell us a little a little bit about Glanbia.

Gina 02:04

Yeah. So I've basically spent my entire career understanding what people buy, why and how they buy it, and then ultimately trying to get them to buy more of that specific thing. So I started my career on the retailer side, and the merchandising space, office supplies, and then crafting supplies, so a little bit different. And then I went over to Nielsen, where I learned everything about syndicated data and did a lot of Category Management from the consulting side. And then the past eight years, I have been on the manufacturer side, leading various category management teams. But the past four years at Glanbia Performance Nutrition, leading the entire function category management. So prior to this, I was in the world of candy, and then with Nielsen, I worked across a lot of fresh produce and bakery, deli and meat clients. So more random weight, like perimeter of the store, went over to candy, which was super impulsive, and people love candy. It's exciting. You know, you eat candy when you're having fun or when you're celebrating or seasons, and getting together and then coming over to the health and wellness space is a complete flip of that, especially in the trends that are happening today across our country, and just how health and wellness has taken on so many new meanings and definitions and generational differences.

Wendy L. 03:28

What I find so fascinating about your background, you have you've got this broader contextual view of the shopper, which is the thing we think about a lot.

Gina 03:38

I like to describe it as I've sat at all seats at the table, and it gives me a point of view that might be a little bit different than someone that may someone that maybe that's just been on the manufacturer side or just been on the retailer side. I can help speak both languages a little bit and bridge that, bridge that divide, and as a category management professional from the manufacturer side, I have to be that unbiased, trusted partner to our retailers, and I have to think full category. And that definition of that word category has changed over the past couple of years, I would say, and a lot of lines have blurred. It's not just protein powder. It is the protein space. And what are people using to get their protein intake? Sometimes it's supplements, sometimes it's meat, sometimes it's the chips that have protein in it. So there's a lot of different competitive fields coming through, and I get to be that partner with our retailer customers, to really talk about all of that and give them that guidance.

Wendy L. 04:39

It struck me the other day because I saw the announcement that Starbucks was going to start putting protein powder or foam or something in their coffees or teas, and I was like, oh, there we go, right. Here's the competitive environment, you know, opening up even further. First of all, tell me, tell me a little bit about that company.

Gina 04:59

Yeah. So Glanbia Performance Nutrition is a leading health and wellness manufacturer. We are rooted in a legacy of sports nutrition products, so Optimum Nutrition is our largest brand. We are one of the largest producers and users of whey protein powder in the space, but we're also the largest brand, or the number one global sports nutrition brand. So globally, if we sell a lot of protein powder and a lot of sports nutrition products. Here in the US Gold Standard, Whey is our leading product. But we do a lot in the pre workout space, different post workouts, Intro workouts, energy products, plant protein, et cetera. And then we have other brands, Isopure, we have Amazing Grass, which is in the Greens supplement space, so greens and superfoods, and then we have Think which is in the protein bar and snack space. And then we also own Slim Fast so we've been managing through a very interesting space in the weight management space, and we work across the health and wellness space, but that space is just, it's like, I said it's blurring, right? Is like, you can't really think of a protein bar anymore as a supplement. It's it's a food item, like, it's just part of everyday life now, and a lot of protein powders have become that way. But also protein shakes, like ready to drink shakes, and those are really more like a beverage to a lot of people these days, instead of a direct supplement. So lots of changing space there. From a brand standpoint, we focus a lot on that, like health and wellness, kind of performance, nutrition, healthy lifestyle space, but have focused a lot more on, you know, how that integrates better with the grocery space and where there's more opportunities, and what is the next thing that consumers and shoppers are looking for in this space? And how can we expand?

Wendy L. 06:53

Yeah, well, that's what struck me in Miami, you made a comment, and I'm going to read it, that that we need to make dramatic assumptions about the competitive landscape changing, because it will change dramatically. And I think even the way you just described, not only your portfolio, and I dropped in, of course, the Starbucks example, but I think about all the things that have changed. I'm in a macro level, every everything, everywhere, all at once, but in your business, so when you step back for the last four years, what stands out to you is the changes that have made you go, oh, my heavens, look at that.

Gina 07:30

There's a lot in the last four years. I mean, we think about back to 2020 when March 2020 happened, and, you know, everyone shut down for two weeks, and that was it, right? And that two weeks turned into years. But at that point, a lot of these products, like a protein powder or pre workout, or spaces that we were in in the sports nutrition space, were revolved around gyms, and a lot of gyms shut down, or a lot of GNCs and Vitamin Shoppes also closed. And that was where a lot of this business was. So while there was still a large business on Amazon, it grew even bigger. And I think about that competitive landscape and how, like I said, things will change dramatically. It's it's multifaceted. It's not just the who so, like who other brand competitors are. It's also the where is changing from a competitive space, and then the how is also changing. So from the who standpoint, there's so many manufacturers and so many brands in this space now, and every day, there's more and more as this space grows. You know, as we see this protein supplement space really become big and be one of the only categories or spaces in the store that's grown both dollars and units over the past couple of years, which is pretty significant. There's a lot of what I would call maybe, like, center store brands getting into this space now. Because, like, why wouldn't you want a piece of the pie if you're a part of that? So, like, a really good example is Oikos yogurt. Everyone knows Oikos yogurt. They just launched a shelf stable protein ready to drink shake, and they have a lot of brand recognition, and people might trust that brand in other categories, and it's a good adjacency for them. So we're seeing competition really expand from maybe like the historical or like the bread and butter sports nutrition brands to all of these other brands coming in the space, and then the wear part, like the in store and online. It's so inner merge now from a web and the shopping journey has never been linear, but now it is, I don't even know what to call it. It's more than a spider web, right? And like the way people are doing everything, and it's just a lot going on, and then you throw in things like TikTok or DTC sites, and that expansion changes every single day, because when you have something as influential as TikTok, you could have something that goes viral there, and the next month, it's the number one brand and category on Amazon. And that is so fast from anything we've ever known. And like, how to react to that, or how to even analyze that, is just something we've all had to change. So it is dramatic.

Wendy L. 10:13

So it is dramatic. It's so interesting. I really do think about that line, for the movie title, “Everything, everywhere, all at once”. Yes, and that ability to, you know, we can't anticipate all of this, but the ability to not get stuck in that lens or that focus silos, whatever order we call them, of oh, well, this is who our competition is. This is where we sell. This is how we sell. This is who our audience is, and whether it's the quote, unquote, Black Swan moments, you know, like Covid, or it's these day to day moments of technology transforming the way we engage, learn and respond, in terms of as consumers, as we go to be shoppers and buyers. We just finished a new piece of research in our How America Shops® series, called How America Shops in Chaos, you know. And we under, we underscored it what's worth it now, and that lens of all of this chaotic times today, we are, we are recording this on September 11 and and you think about that journey of 24 years. So for a Gen Z, the chaos has been their life. And so in some ways, I think we are just starting to understand that when it comes to how people adapt and evolve. So I think, yes, your your space is particularly interesting where, all of a sudden, your unique quality of this, you know, this more professional, performance oriented category now, is in somebody's yogurt. Why wouldn't or my coffee? Why wouldn't I have it? Right?

Gina 11:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much more mainstream now, yeah, it has ever been. It's not niche anymore. Like we look at protein across the store, and I think the stat, if I'm remembering the exact number right, is the five year CAGR of items that have protein claims on their front of package is up, I think, 44% versus five years ago, 10 year 10% five year CAGR. It's extreme. How just mainstream it's become. It's at Starbucks now.

Wendy L. 15:25

So how do you keep an eye on all of this?

Gina 16:08

There's a lot to look at. We typically do it in several ways to keep it kind of a pulse on what's going on. So we have a lot of evergreen consumer research and insights that we follow. So do look at a lot of different surveys and a lot of pulse checks on just what's going on with consumers across the US. We've done some recent work on updating consumer segmentations that we have to really understand what that looks like from a needs based segmentation these days, and not a demographic based segmentation, because it's different, like people act differently, even though they might have the same demographics and your needs might be different than someone else's needs. So we've, we've done some work in that space, and that's really opened up, I would say, a lot of visibility to these needs and these different people that are out there in this category, or in these categories, engaging in health and wellness. And there's, you know, one side of these relentless warriors, right? And these are the people that are at the gym all the time, and this is their life. And they, you know, live and die by everything health and wellness. They're so strict, and that's everything they live for. And then there's the people all the way at the other end, which are pleasure seekers, right? And like that. They're not really engaged in anything health and wellness related. But when you look across the spectrum, 75% of people are engaged in this space, which is a really high number. And then you kind of layer in other stats that we have, of 91% of Americans participate in exercise. But when you double click into that, I think it's like 42 or 43% of people define exercise as health work like cleaning. So they're thinking of fitness and exercise in other ways. And how do like we meet them with products like that. The other thing that we do a lot of recently is we've been using a lot of AI tools that will actually help us mine, like social conversations, to forecast out where engagement is going to be, or what maturity curves might look like in various topics. So like, greens was one we looked at a couple of years ago to really kind of see, like we saw an uptick starting, do we think it's going to last for a while? Like, where's the conversation going? Why are people using greens? And we've done that with some more things as of late, and it's been really cool to see. everything we do, like consumer at the center, or shopper at the center, think through what it means for them, and then how do we bring that to life for them?

Wendy L. 14:57

Academy was a global organization. And think about satisfying those again, in these very complex times?

Gina 20:55

Wendy L. 21:01

yeah. How does that global knowledge feed into what you're looking at?

Gina 15:11

So I would say, probably in our space, the US, probably leads a lot of the trends. Like, we're definitely the most mature market in terms of the choices people have. So from a brand standpoint, or product standpoint, probably where they can buy it standpoint, we're definitely the most mature with the most choices, versus, like, maybe a country like India, where it's a very big space for them, but still a lot of opportunity. And there's maybe a concentrated number of brands there, and they're very focused still on the like, heavy sports nutrition standpoint. So we've brought some learnings from here on. How do we help them build out past protein powder? Like, what's that regimen look like? Or, what does that like stack look like? Or the best thing possible for the consumers and shoppers that are there today in those other countries. So we've been able to share some of those learnings back and forth. But from a consumer standpoint, a lot of the consumer like the Nutri Needs segmentation is global first, and then we'll actually do like, kind of double clicks into different countries to see, is it different than global or like, are we seeing something nuanced? We spend

Wendy L. 16:31

we spend a fair bit of time around the world, looking at innovation at retail. I'm looking at category development at retail, and bringing that back, at least for our US clients. And it struck me last October, being in the UK, where we co sponsored an event about the Future of Commerce 2030, and spending some time in stores like Holland and Barrett, which began as kind of a store doing healthy grains and now has expanded its offer into everything from protein to vitamins, minerals, supplements, all of this and very specialized, very service oriented, very sophisticated format. And then you'd walk into Selfridges department store, and there was a Feel Good Wellness bar in the middle of the cosmetics department, and you go, like, oh, look at that. You know, the other thing that I want to ask you about, too was, you know, this, this notion of, you know, not inexpensive product, let's

Gina 17:23

say protein powder, for example. When we look at the shoppers within protein powder, different brands bring in different shoppers, for the most part. So there are some more premium brands, while there's some more like value brands, from that standpoint, and what we do end up seeing, or what we have seen lately, I would say is that people are really focused on the benefit. So again, what are their needs that they're looking for? Let's say it's their first time buying protein powder, and it might be something that no carbs or no sugar is something that they're looking for specifically, and that's going to trump some other things that they might be looking at. And when it comes to price, price is always top of mind, but there's trade offs in price, like, is it a price per serve? Is it a total cash outlay? Those vary depending on the retailer that we're looking at and what type of shopper is at that retailer. Yeah, one of the other things that we do see is that there are a lot of people that will use protein powder as supplements for other things, right? Like a scoop of protein powder in pasta might be cheaper than buying, like, meat to put in your pasta, to have a protein source in there. So there's various trade offs of how people might be doing, yeah, their shopping.

Wendy L. 18:49

The other day, I was in Omaha, again, stores doing a retail immersion, and Aldi had, at the end of their one of their end caps, yes, protein powders. Okay, people are now looking to buy their protein powder at Aldi, as they are many other things at Aldi today,

Gina 19:07

just, Well, another thing too about it, like from a price standpoint, is we're seeing some of those ahas as of late, like, I would say, the past year or two, in that the protein ready to drink shakes, which are more expensive than a powder because they're pre done, there's more packaging. That category is growing four times the rate protein powder is. So there is this trade off as well for convenience, right? Like, what is the price of convenience to someone, or what is the what's going to make them consume it for the need that they have? Like, is it that they can just grab it out of their fridge? Is it that they want it to have driving to work. So that difference in growth, even though protein powder is seeing a lot of growth, four times more than that, is a lot for a much more expensive category, and it just shows, like, the rank and the importance of different benefits.

Wendy L. 19:58

That's the other thing, two pieces to that the. We've seen in this new how America shops in chaos work is that one concerns continuing concerns about health care coverage and losing your health care benefits. Or I'm 26 or 25 and a half, and I'm about to fall off my parents plan, and with that, this sensibility of, I better do more to take care of myself. So the preventative piece? Yes, and then, what is that worth? It's not equal to equal. It's just I don't I can't afford to be sick. So what will I do to prevent that? And then the again, as you said, the kinds of trade offs people are making, the convenience of my protein shake, grab and go, is worth it to me, because I can grab and go and that makes sure I have it every day or something. So that value proposition, when we think about what's a what's a value today, is not just, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, right? It's not just the lowest price, right?

Gina 20:58

People might have different like, I'm going to go to this retailer, because I trust them to have the best value for me. But then when they get there to make the actual decisions, it could be different trade offs once they're in there, because they inherently assume they're getting whatever they buy is going to be the best value. So it's interesting to see those.

Wendy L. 21:18

Yeah, and that, again, the layers of complexity in the work you do that it isn't only about, here's my category, here's my consumer of that category. You talked about layers in the beginning, and I think that's what makes it so intriguing, right? That, you know, the constant change. The other thing I was thinking about you, you did make the point with the new work you've done about it's not just demographics, but their needs or their preferences, particularly today, with so many choices. You've talked about disruption, when you think about the is, are we now at a point where it's all about Walmart, Amazon, Costco, and that's it. In general terms, I feel like that's what everybody's thinking about Costco. Sam's not just Costco, because Sam's does an extraordinary job too, but within that space, clubs, Walmart, Amazon, and that's it.

Gina 22:11

I guess, if you were to rank and share them out like those, those are going to be your top shares when when you look across the board, but when you actually look at just the breakdown of like, in some of the categories we play in, like, in store to online, it's really close to 50:50, so yes, Amazon is really big in this space, but there's also some really big in store pieces too. I also think about like, the average number of places people shop throughout the year, and for a specific category, it's like five plus. So people are still shopping and doing fill in trips, and doing quick trips, and doing the stock up trips, and that all still plays. So the way that, like we've been thinking about it a lot in our space, is what is the right strategy for each of those, because when you think about like the maturity level in some of the channels, like a grocery channel, for example, a lot of grocery retailers are strapped for space, and it is, you know, very much a profit game. Or we're trying, we're got low margins, and we're trying to figure out what works best for them. So they might just have a little small section to give to, like a protein powder and a protein shake and pre workout. So what's the best items for them? What are the best of the best? What's really going to be, like, that quick trip, fill in trip for them, versus, like, maybe with a Walmart or a Target or an Amazon it's how do we build their basket? So those people are already coming in, maybe to buy a protein powder. How do we get them to add a pre workout or add an energy supplement or add something else? And that's really the growth strategy for them. And then

Wendy L. 23:47

And then, when you look at specialty, you talked about like, Vitamin Shoppe and GNC and things. And then I think about people like Dick’s, who started to add, you know, in some of their new formats, vitamins and other related products, see, you know, health and personal care products. How do you, how do you think about those types of specialty retailers?

Gina 24:09

that. Yeah, we we do. There's, there's a, obviously, a lot of crossover from a lot of the consumer segments that are shopping in those places, from an athletic standpoint, or a fitness and exercise standpoint, so we do work a lot with them, and really try to focus again, on what is the best offering from an assortment standpoint for the shoppers they have in the store. So where typically do they have, like, average ticket rings coming in, or what is the total basket size look like? You know, we don't want to necessarily come in there with items that are going to be like half of their regular basket already that that just doesn't make any sense. So does it focus on trial? Or is there an option for trial and stock up if you want that? Or is it more impulse, I'm going to consume it now in the moment instead of take it home? So there's been, like, a lot of growth in some of those. Stores on, like, front end type of items, or grab and go, like, I'm I want it cold, if it's a drink or a single serve snack or bar, and that's where we've seen a lot of action in those places. Or, how do you get, you know, maybe some younger shoppers that are going into those spaces with their parents or with their families, and you can start to build up kind of this credibility and this brand recognition and and then people will go stock up on it elsewhere.

Wendy L. 25:30

You talked a little bit about AI, but now I start to think about, okay, now you're selling in all these places. And I go into perplexity, or chat, or whatever, and I say, I want this, this, this, and this. Yes, the pricing transparency. I mean, how do you, how do you even think about that within the context of the future of retail?

Gina 25:50

There is so much complexity when it comes to pricing and transparency and which retailer is doing. What in terms of pricing, obviously, the retailer set all of their retail prices. They is sole discretion to them on how they price their items. There's a whole lot of activity from the retailer side on, pricing transparency and pricing testing and different dynamics going on from there. So from an AI standpoint, it's going to be really interesting, like, where that lands in shoppers’ hands, like, what they actually start grasping on to there. One of the things outside of pricing that we've really seen interesting about AI is going back to, like, this preventative health and people really trying to get in this space, is, what type of recommendations are they taking from these tools? So what prompts or questions, are they typing in on, I want to improve my x activity or fitness performance, or I want to lose 20 pounds, and what comes up for them to then take, or on the flip side, like not even being nervous about it, being more opportunity opportunistic about it, on how do you serve them up? Like, the right things in there, or the right way to build their basket, or the right way to create a regimen and really help shoppers build this out and like, know what to purchase. So it'll be interesting to see where all that lands. I feel like it's, it's very much the wild west right now.

Wendy L. 27:28

Yeah. Does feel like, yeah. It does feel a bit like I was talking to a colleague, friend who, who, you know, lived in the early days of, you know, online and E commerce. And she says it feels like the early days of .com when, you know, everybody was running madly, spending money madly, and then, you know, it all, and then began again, and came to be where we see it today. The other thing I was thinking about that it's probably had a massive impact, I assume, is that the whole GLP-1 conversation, which all of a sudden, right,

Gina 27:59

it was so interesting leading up to GLP-1s because when, when I started here four years ago, as we were getting some consumer surveys and doing, you know, pulse checks on what are consumers top health needs or top health wants, we started seeing this trend where less people were filling in Lose weight as their top health needs, and to look better or feel better. So it was like the the verbiage that was being used on like diet or lose weight was lessening, and people were moving away from that to a look better, feel better, type of verbiage. And then so we, we were going down that road, you know, that was just the culture and the way Americans were talking. And then all of a sudden, GLP-1, hit and lose weight, was back in the conversation. And that was, again, like the number one thing, and it was okay to talk about weight again, or it would, it's, it's been an interesting phenomenon to see that play out. The interesting part is, we still only see less than 10% of the population on it regularly, or like, consistently, month over month, and a lot of the side effects have been a big reason why people drop out, and the price of why people drop out. So it'll be interesting to see, like, does that grow when there's new forms coming out, or as prices have now come down? Like it definitely is something we monitor, especially with our SlimFast brand. Yeah.

Wendy L. 29:31

Well, you where we sort of began this whole notion of Category Management. The question I often say to myself is, it shows to me, like category management is dead because you've come from a different view that it's not only about this category or things that look like me right in that category, and that's where I think the greatest successes are when, again, biased, when you look at the whole shopper's world, how do you think about the. Evolution of Category Management as we think about the future of retail? Yeah, it's,

Gina 30:04

Yeah, it's that is a great question. Definitely, I wouldn't say, like it the traditional format is maybe dead to an extent, right? Like, one of the big changes we've seen, not only just from a slim, narrow definition of category, is traditional category management is really in store, right? And mining hundreds of planograms and seeing all the different variables and really owning a lot of that, and that has completely changed in a lot of categories, in that it is full omnichannel. You have to be in store and online, and you need to be able to talk on how they're affecting each other, how they work together, how you make a seamless experience in store for that shopper and online, it is seamless together, and they can use it together, because honestly, like, they're doing both anyways, like you're I saw something recently. They were like, the most important screen in the store is already in the shopper's hands, which is your phone. So like, how do you work with that? That has completely changed in that a lot of our time now is talking about, do we have the best experience online, to really supplement the experience in store, and the the journey is really the same. When someone makes a choice to go to a store, they make a selection, they make trade offs, they check out, and then they repeat after. That's basically the exact same from a shopper journey standpoint, but the levers that you pull in store and online are different, but you have to make sure they match together, that like you're doing them kind of similar across and that's been a huge change for Category Management. If you work on Walmart, you are Omni and you are both right, yeah, and that's huge. What I've challenged my team to do and myself to do, is to think broader than just the category, like, what is that bigger macro lens, and how does maybe this one couple shelves we're talking about fit into this broader lens? And where do we go from there? What's the competitors phase? What are people doing? Because honestly, we see it like if you look at the data, you see a lot of not a lot. There's volume loss that is unexplained, and a lot of it is because you just our current suppliers of data don't have visibility to that space, but that's something that we as modern category managers can help explain or help piece together about where that competitive.

Wendy L. 32:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remind me of some years ago when one of our clients in the hair care space said to us, we've lost 12 points of share in our in our, you know, in our distribution. We have no idea where it went. And we said to them, have you looked at the Sally's Beauty Supply Store? Have you looked at the, you know, whatever it was, whether it was Ultra or whatever it was at the time? And they were like, oh, because they were still looking at the traditional MULO space. And even in health and wellness, you walk into Nordstrom up the street here, and you see all the wellness products, you see all the vitamins they're selling, and you realize that just you know that that life that people are leading, and all the places they are to that they think about, either on impulse or or because, oh, it saved me a trip. So we won't say category management is dead. Those who do not include the whole journey in that view as are dead. There's no doubt about that. I'm always amazed at how many retailers and companies still separate and have the E commerce and on the mind. Mind boggling. They wouldn't do it themselves. That's the issue, right? If they were shopping themselves, mostly they get it. But when they go into their office, sit down and open their computer, they're like, no, no, no. It must be that way anyway. And after that, you don't need me pontificating. So okay, here's my last question for you. I'm going to read it because I always forget it. What's your personal future of retail moment lately? What have you done that you went, oh, oh, I had never done that before. That's a surprise, a good question.

Gina 34:07

Yeah, I would say that my future of retail moment has been, I don't know if I love or hate to admit this,

Wendy L. 34:16

Oh, come on, you're amongst you're amongst friends. It's very intimate, just you and me and hopefully a few thousand others.

Gina 34:21

others, I was like, the Amazon truck visits my house probably three times a day.

Wendy L. 34:27

You're not it's not an unfamiliar story. You are not alone

Gina 49:37

Yes, I know I like to blame it that that maybe it's because I have a two year old, and for the past two years, it's just been like, oh my gosh, I need whatever, and then it can be there in four hours. So, but I would, I would also say too that a I have really, actually been doing a lot more shopping on DTC. The websites, so actually going to the brand or the manufacturer's website and shopping their. First to get a feel for who they are, get more information or content. And that might not have been something I did five years ago or four years ago, I would probably just go walk through stores and try things on. And I feel like as I've gotten more time strapped, I was an early adopter of, like Peapod grocery back, however, many years ago, I remember living in downtown Chicago, and they would come up to my apartment door and unpack the bags. And I loved it. And here we are today, still ordering online and getting it dropped off. Hours later,

Wendy L. 35:36

well, I will, I will admit to yesterday watching a webinar and thinking, I need to pay attention, and go, my god, I forgot the groceries, and literally typing the order in. And two hours later, Fresh Direct ding dong showed up at the door, but just about I was still listening to the webinar. Fortunately, I wasn't presenting that would have been interesting. Excuse me, I'll be back in a minute. I just want to unpack my groceries. You never know with me, but yeah, no, no, I and a two year old changes everything. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Well, I think from your compelling perspective, from retail to data to candy, yummy, it's also other use on a bad day,

Gina 51:21

Wendy L. 51:36:17

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Well, I think from your compelling perspective, from retail to, you know, data to candy, yummy. It's also other use on a bad day for a very nice it's different.

Gina 51:52

Of self care is different.

Wendy L. 36:22

Woman, after my own heart, it's been a very bad day. Where's my chocolate anyway? Oh, it's been a wonderful day. I'll have a best cheesecake. No, no anyway. Thank you for joining me. It was a pleasure

Gina 36:36

Thank you for having me. Yeah, so much fun. It was great to talk to you again.

Wendy L. 52:36:41

To come we'll have Yes, protein and coffee. No, maybe protein and a cocktail. We'll figure that out.

Gina 52:44

Thank you.

Wendy L. 53:19

Gina and I had great pleasure meeting on a stage and then coming together to continue the conversation. I think the most telling thing that she said, and what drew her to me when we first met, was the way she thinks about category management. You know, we built these principles and really had a dramatic effect on the way we think about our business. There's no doubt about that, but the category is not a narrowly confined area anymore. So if you think about it through the lens of the consumer, and then the consumer as they shop, that notion of what is now in that category, or how does the consumer think about that category is really critical to growth. Gina talked about, you know, protein in yogurt. I talked about protein foam going into Starbucks coffee. Those things expand the category. And if you're not paying attention, if you don't understand a broader context, then you will miss different share you will miss share of shopper. You'll miss feed in the store or online, really, really quickly. And I think they're the things that we all need to pay attention to when we think about some of these dramatic changes, and the way we educate, inform and bring along our teams as we think about the future of retail so lots in that journey today, and lots of joy, from candy to protein, all of those things really certainly enhance our lives these days. So let's think about that for the future, and we'll see you there. Cheers for now.