Wendy
Hello, my name is Wendy Liebmann. I’m the CEO and Chief shopper at WSL Strategic Retail and this is Future Shop. This is where I have a fast and furious chat with experts in the field about the future of retail. Today, you know, we’re going to talk about the future of retail and the urgency to build an inclusive and diverse retail world. As I think about the future of retail, and how we will imagine and activate that future, it becomes more and more important than ever to have diversity and inclusiveness in our mind’s eye and just not the words. But how do we affect this both personally, internally in our companies and actually on the retail selling floor. Who better than to talk about this is my guest and good friend Terry Thomas. Terry is the Executive Vice President and Chief customer officer for Unilever. US. He is responsible for leading all the US customer businesses ecommerce shopper marketing shopper insights right up our alley, and many other areas of that business. He’s been with Unilever for about eight years, moved up the ranks from Channel manager channel director in terms of the grocery business on the Unilever Board of diversity and inclusion. I first met him when he was at PepsiCo, or maybe even before he can tell us that in a minute. And there is no better person than Terry, to help us discover and discuss this all-essential topic, which I actually call the Color of Retail. Welcome, Terry. It’s so nice to see you.

Terry T. 
Wendy, thank you so much for having me. It’s always it’s a pleasure to see you.

Wendy 
Thank you. I you know, I always ask this question these days in our pandemic world. Where are you? How are you? How’s Jakki, how are the girls, all of those things?

Terry T. 
Thank you so much for asking. So I’m in sunny Dallas, Texas. And the girls in now say Jakki and I are both doing well. We are blessed to both have our both vaccine shots of Moderna. And our oldest daughter Trinity, she’s a junior at Harvard. And she has her vaccines. And then our middle daughter, Nyomi is a freshman at Cornell, and she has her vaccines. And then our youngest daughter, Jaden is a freshman in high school. And she’s not old enough. So but everyone’s well, everyone’s healthy. Everyone’s safe. And so we’re blessed. So thanks for asking,

Wendy 
Indeed, but you’ve made me feel incredibly old. Because I don’t know. I feel like when I first met you in your Pepsi, Frito Lay days, they were little, tiny girls. And now I’m going like oh, my heavens, two of them are at university and well, and the baby is 14 or something, whatever she is, so thank you for that, I don’t think.  But anyway, I’m so glad you are well.  You know, this is a topic I have to say very personally, that you, in fact, centered my thinking or made me think differently. A number of nearly a year ago now you and I were supposed to talk and one of our catch ups that we have. And I recall it was you know, just after George Floyd had been killed, and you had sent me a note that just said, Listen, I’m really sorry, I can’t talk. I just am not in the right place to have our chat this week. You know, it was that moment that it’s not that I, you know, didn’t understand what was going on but you made it so personal, intimate for me and pulled me into that in ways that I had never been before. And you really inspired the beginning of this conversation that said, What can we as industry people and leaders, do about this and, and really activate change, and particularly within the context of retail, which is the world you and I live in a lot of our time. So thank you for doing this. Can you just, you know, from a personal perspective, talk about this, what diversity and inclusion mean to you?

Terry T. 
Sure, absolutely. So let me just start with diversity. So for me, as a black male, I, I am diverse. But certainly you can say I’m diverse on the traditional metrics of being black. So you know, for me, diversity definitely includes the traditional measures of ethnicity, gender, race, I mean, religion. Where are you from. You know, so diversity includes all those things, too. But for me, diversity also takes on a different meaning, which speaks to who you are as a person. I truly believe that we all are different. No two people are alike. And everyone has their own unique experiences, their characteristics, the things that have made their acculturation and that unique perspective, and it is truly unique, is diversity at its best. And as a result, I believe we all have an intrinsic seat, that we were, that it makes us diverse. And so for me, I think that’s critically important. I always viewed people who want to understand who are the what is their one suit, what’s their intrinsic suit. And when I look at it from the inclusion perspective, I really looked at it as that I really want to value people for who they are, and hear their perspective, different perspectives, because I do believe that having different points of views, and different ideations of coming from different people, provides often the best answers. And so that’s for me personally, and then, I think about it from a business context. It gets a little more, it gets a little more defined in terms of there’s a, there’s a numerical piece of diversity. And so what is your gender? What is an organization’s gender representation? What is their ethnic representation? So I think about diversity in that context, for sure. But I also think about it in this one suit is, what are all the different compositions of personalities that are embodied in the business environment? And then the last component of that is the inclusiveness. And how do people feel valued? Do they feel included? Are they truly champion and supported in a fashion that allows them to be included, not excluded? So for me, that’s how I think about diversity.

Wendy 
That reminds me Terry, of the Ava DuVernay quote, the film director, who said, if I may read it, “I don’t know what diversity means, but I do know what it means not to be included.” And I and when I heard her say that it sort of pulled me into this conversation and took away the kind of intellectualizing that so many companies have I know and, and are working hard to sort of talk about diversity in the ranks and building a more reflective organization. But that notion of not being included was so powerful to me that whoever we are, we sort of recognize that at some point, and you were just alluding to that, and I just wonder how you how you feel about that when you think about the organization and your people and the business you do?

Terry T. 
Yeah, no, I think that’s a wonderful, wonderful point. I often talk to our teams in our company, in frankly, anyone in life environments like this when people ask. I very much strive for people to feel included. But that inclusion means that they can bring their one suit to work.

Terry T. 
So Wendy, I think the notion around feeling included, is critical. I don’t think having diversity have for an organization to have diverse numbers and representation is the end of the equation, the and in the equation is there for them to feel included. And that’s when you can an organization and really feel that it’s moving forward, and that it has diverse representation, and feels included, and they’re moving the business forward. For me, within that context, I think it starts with people feeling empowered to bring their one suit their authentic suit, the suit that makes up the heuristics in the bias, and as part of their acculturation, that when they wake up in the morning, they don’t put on a different suit. They bring that intrinsic suit to them with work that really embodies who they are. And if the environment is actually open and welcoming to them, that doesn’t judge them by their gender, the color of your skin, the way they wear their hair, where they’re from, but says we want you just as you are, you come to work your full self with your one suit. That’s what we want. That’s progress. And that’s how organizations can really get to optimize their culture in their employees.

Wendy 
Yeah, it’s interesting you say that because I remember in doing moderating a panel discussion for an organization called WE that helps develop talent in the in the healthcare industries, we had Kathleen Wilson-Thompson, who was then the head of HR at the Walgreens, Walgreens Boots Alliance. And one of the things she said at the time was, you know, it’s very easy to check the boxes. Very easy to say we have these numbers in this and these numbers and that and whatever, but she talked a lot about people feeling that they were included and empowered to be themselves and create opportunity to develop talents. So they it wasn’t just the box ticked it was, and here’s the path, and here’s what it does for the entire organization. And I found that Yeah, I found that very powerful, because we’re very good at ticking boxes, sometimes companies wanting to get before all of that. So when you think about that, within your organization, are there how do you I mean, Unilever has at least publicly facing has done lots of things of late both in outreach to the consumer and shopper, I’m going to call it to the, you know, to the people who buy your products. You seem to be doing having a lot of building initiatives internally, within your organization. And then I also think about the way you’ve been dealing with the retailers. So can you talk a little bit about what you’ve been doing internally, to develop talent and, and support diversity and inclusion?

Terry T. 
Yeah. So if I can give a little context for Unilever. Before I get into specifically what we’re doing today, Unilever, back in 1800s, when it was the founder, Lord Lever, and back then Victorian England was suffering, because with Listeria, and other diseases, and so he felt that it was his company’s responsibility, because they actually had so they made so to educate, and actually give out socially, to have impact on this society. And so they handed out free bars of soap to try and use that and they educated consumers on how to wash their hands as a means of preventing Listeria and other things.

Wendy 
Amazing. I didn’t know that story. And I grew up on Lever soap. So you know, Lever Brothers.

Terry T. 
Fast forward, and we have COVID. And now we’re still talking about washing our hands.  Well, my point starting there is to say that purpose has been at the center of Unilever’s mission since the founding father, and you fast forward to today, over the years, we have taking on environmental purpose, and very much putting environmental causes at the center of all of our brands. And what I would say last year we did is we took on putting social purpose at the center of our brands as well, in terms of also roles around fair wages, equal employment opportunities, we have a gender equality mission, which we achieved. But last year, we actually expanded that to be specifically focused to include, as you say, people of color. And so in doing that, you know, as managers were held as leaders, we’re held accountable. It’s a part of our metric system. And so you do deliver the sales growth and you share in the profit. But did you also deliver your people of color, and gender, as well, metrics, and so it’s embedded in the way we manage the business. We have then taken it forward and put it into our brands. And so you’ve seen all the wonderful things that our brands are doing, to bring delight, to bring to life the mission on from diversity as well as inclusion. And so I think for Unilever is just a part of our culture is a part of our DNA that we’re striving for to be diverse and inclusive for all people regardless of race, gender, ethnicity.

Wendy 
Can I be blunt and ask the question, because you know me, why was it only last year that you built in this this the as part of the metrics having an ethnically diverse or a support of black Americans within the measurement system?

Terry T. 
So so let me be clear in my in my response to that, because when I said last year, that was Global.

Wendy 
Oh, okay. Okay.

Terry T. 
So we’ve had that in the US for quite some time. But when Unilever, as you know, we’re headquartered in London, the US is, North America is, 20% of the business. So the other 80%, of which Africa is a significant portion of the business, I think it’s like 10. And then you have Asia. And so we are extremely diverse, with people of color globally. And therefore, I believe where our bigger opportunity was, was to keep our people color numbers globally strong. But we were the gender equality was a more underdeveloped metric initially.

Wendy 
And that’s helpful, I was actually going to ask you the question about being a global company. As I said, I grew up with Lever Brothers, you know, in Australia, because that was before the day. And but being a global company, the inclusiveness has a much bigger and a net, I suppose, if that’s the right or maybe inappropriate term, but that it because of the diversity around the world, and all the populations that you serve. So I wondered how different that is, and how much the global or the teams around the world learn from each other in this, and then what’s the, you know, stake in the ground that the company has, the corporation has, the enterprise has developed to say, this is our philosophy around the world?

Terry T. 
Yeah. So Unilever, it’s really fascinating, because the way we’re looking at it is certainly keeping the traditional measurements. But we’re also looking at how do we ensure that there’s equality across even pay. And so we have a mission to ensure that an actual, we’ve already attained it, where all of our employees, no matter where they work in the world, they have a fair wage, not minimum wage, a fair wage. And so for us, I would say what we’ve done is specifically for diversity and inclusion is that we’re saying we won’t stop just there. Because there’s even more layers of the opportunity that needs to be addressed. And then as far as call ideation, across, you know, globally, we absolutely share, we have forums, we have affinity groups that cross pollinate ideas, we have our own version of TED Talks, and things of that nature, where we’re trying to capture best practice and inspire by storytelling. And so for the agenda is vast, and it’s actually really encouraging because oftentimes, when you live in the US, and you’re born and raised in the US, you’re not necessarily aware of the issues that other people in other countries are facing. And as you alluded to, in some places, it may not be so much about what color you are, they may be where you’re from, of which you’re biased against. And so therefore, you’re excluded based on where you from. And so the D&I agenda for me, when I think about my global level, is much more complicated is by the appropriate word than what I ever realized, being born, raised, educated and lived my entire life in the US.

Wendy
So hold that thought for a moment. You know, before Terry, and I continue our chat, I just want you to know that we have much more on this topic on our website, www.wslstrategicretail.com, where you can access our How America Shops® research on the importance of black shoppers, you can listen to our panel discussions with retailers such as Walmart, Target and Walgreens on how they are approaching diversity and inclusion, and lots more. Let’s now get back to my conversation with Terry.

Wendy
Now, it’s really fascinating from my sort of Australian perspective, where, even though I’ve lived here a very long time, you know, Australia is a country of tremendous diversity, and to have watched that evolve over generations. And the impact of that, as you think about what it really means, is, is really interesting, as I think about how do you build talent? How do you keep talent? How do you ensure that the, the people who buy your goods and services feel like they’re part of it? Because that’s the other side of inclusiveness, right? The people we sell to, how do they feel like this is a brand or a company they want to participate with, which to me is, is the other piece as we think about the future of retail, what is that front facing to our, to our constituents, I guess, externally.

Terry T. 
You know, it’s interesting, because I think in the US last year, with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and corporations, really understanding the role and accepting the role that they have to their employees, and then ultimately to the consumers of their products, whether it’s or a retailer who shops at their stores. And from that, I believe that the way commercials, the representation and commercials have changed. And I’ve always been sensitive to it.  But and to see the transformation and it is a good feeling to see that corporations are playing out do have ensuring that advertising is much more diverse. Packaging, the pictures on packaging, being much more diverse. When you’re in store, and you see point of sale material being much more diverse. And I think it’s important because I think the society will continue to expect that from retailers and for manufacturers, and will hold us accountable if we’re not.  My wife and I were watching a movie yesterday (we went to a movie theater and it was COVID friendly). And it was a movie called Voyager.  And I know it was about the earth was overheating. And they had found the planet very far away that had to support human life. And so they had raised these kids, and they will put them on this aircraft. And they were going to have to do this long mission to get to this new world. And all of the main actors were white. They, you know, they’re in and it was

Wendy 
I’m shaking my head even though people can’t see this. I’m shaking my head.

Terry T. 
And it in a few of them… it appeared that the men, the males, had more than majority roles, and except for one lead female, and then there was a black female that had a supporting role and an Asian female, that had a supporting role. And so it was an attempt, I think, but they to me, they just they really missed, they dropped the ball on it.  And I noticed it, and my wife and I actually talked about that. And so I believe that retailers, manufacturers, consumers are so much more aware after last year, and they’re sensitive, and failure to not be inclusive and to not be diverse, and how you go to market and how you serve your consumer, you run the risk of alienating consumers.

Wendy 
We’ve seen that in our How America Shops® research where when we look at the value shoppers have today, we pre COVID, you know, historically through COVID. And as we’re moving out, fingers crossed this notion of companies where that I’m willing to support where I’m even willing to pay a little more. It’s not just in the obvious around things like sustainability. But it’s companies that respect diversity, companies that support the local community, very intrinsic, and very, you know, you can see it as critical values. It’s not just about the performance of the product anymore. It is all about the sort of social values. And we’ve seen that grow. And you’re right, the shopper, the consumer as shopper is often so far ahead of the rest of us. And I think, you know, the power of that as you just described there. So when you think about when I think about, you know, it seems obvious to me, maybe now, through your lens, thank you for that, is that, you know, there’s a there’s a logic to all of this, even if I can’t sort of get the historical context or anything else. I need to keep good talent. I need to hire and keep good talent. I need to be able to have a good base of consumers and shoppers to sell to. And if I miss the plot here, like you were talking about in the movie, then there’s just a lost business opportunity. I know that sounds incredibly commercial. But if I get it bring it down to that, you know, how do we how do we even I hate to monetize it, but commercially how do we think about that, or how do companies need to think about that opportunity?

Terry T.
Yes, I think that if you start with the base assumption that companies want to have products and services that meet the needs of the populations and consumers that they serve. And so I think it’s what currently it’s been for maybe a couple years now, that one in two babies that are born are multicultural. By mid 20s, 2020s, 30 and unders will be 50% diverse. And so the world is changing, right in the US, right before us. And so the marketplace is reflecting a diverse consumer base. And so these consumers have the power of unlimited information in the palm of their hands with their phone. And so they are going to expect the companies and for the brands and services that they buy, to understand them and to be representative of them. And so companies are going to have to understand that failure to do so is a risk of market share. But you’re also and you said a key point earlier, he has to be intrinsic. And so you know, you can’t corporations can’t, has to avoid saying we have a D&I mission. But no one on the board is diverse. There’s no women. You know, there’s no one, people of color. That’s not consistent with the mission. Right? No one in the C-suite is female, or a person of color. It has to be it’s going to be intrinsic, intrinsic means in every layer, and every thread it’s embedded and it has to start from the top. Not a bottoms-up solve. It is a top-down solve.

Wendy 
Yeah. So if I think about getting started on this, if I’m a company who either woke up and finally thought, listened to us, and said, gee, I’m nowhere in this. You know, I don’t even as I look around at my employees, as I look around not just in the products I sell, but the people who work with me, how do I get started on this? This is, uh, you know, how to if Yeah, if I haven’t gotten started, how do I begin here?

Terry T. 
Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it can be overwhelming. But I think the first, the first thing it has to be, it has to start at the top, it has to start in the Board. And with the CEO, that this is going to — diversity inclusion is going to be a metric of performance. Because whatever the Board decides is measured, and is important, it will be executed. Why? Because the CEO works for the Board. So it has to start there. If you want to get on the journey, start at the board level, that the Board agrees that this is a strategy, and that they will hold the CEO and their staff accountable for the progress very much like they do on revenue, and profit and share metrics. And if it starts there, then it will be really quickly, amazing how quickly strategies will start to emerge. Okay, so I think that’s first making from the top the thing that from there has to be embedding in the metric system. And then there has to be training and just an honest assessment and understanding that are the starting point that you need help. And that for some reason, it’s okay to have help and to have consultants and others trained organization on proper ways of recruiting retention and development. Managers, how do you deal with unconscious bias?  These are things that are, are not necessarily conscious behavior. Right? And so you have to be made aware and educated and trained as an organization. And then from there, companies have to listen to employees to do a cultural assessment to really get at understanding, what are some of the things? What are people saying? What’s working, what’s not, what can we do differently? So it is, there is, there’s no silver bullet. But the starting point is with the Board, and stating it as an imperative for the business, with metrics, a stated objective with that’s measurable, and holding the CEO down and all leaders accountable for it. And then once they’ve done that, they really need to focus on building capabilities and training the organization, because it is assume that you can just measure them and that train them would be a colossal mistake. Because obviously, there’s something in the culture that has prevented progress from taking place in the first and but understanding that and accepting it, but then going forward from there is critically important. So that’s how I would look in. If I were in a situation like that, to get started. That’s how I would do it.

Wendy 
Yeah. And and do you feel that, and I want to talk a little bit about sort of this the future of retail within this context, because it always feels to me like, you know, when I when I walk into a retail environment, yes, there’s an aisle with certain products. And you know, sometimes, you know, it could be, you know, whether it’s food or beauty or whatever. And yes, hopefully, there’s more imagery that makes me feel welcome, whoever I am, but often, even the reflection of the staff on the floor, if I’m in a physical space, you know, so they’re feeling like there’s so many components when we think about the execution at retail of this philosophy. How do you think about that? And do you as Unilever and all the work you’re doing? Do you have the power to insist when you’re the chief customer officer? Or do you have leverage to convince some of your customers to do more than they’re doing?

Terry T. 
Well, what’s interesting, I think, Unilever has done a really good job of accepting our responsibility of having being one voice and using our voice, and leading by example with our voice. And so I think it’s very important that that companies look at themselves first and acknowledge that, you know, it, this is a work in progress for all of us. And so we certainly are not going to cast any stones. But we’re going to share what we’re doing. And we’re and then offered to help. And so I’ve been in a number of conversations with clients and customers where we’ve had D&I exchanges, at the most senior levels, and those exchanges have been mutually beneficial, and where some cases we went in, and we thought we probably had it figured out, and we walked away saying, “Wow, we maybe we learned more than we actually gave”. So it’s been really enlightening to see the industry come together. And not necessarily call each other out. Because I don’t think that helps. But to come together and say we’re in this together, we’re partners, and we actually optimize the scenario when we all are being successful. So through that, having exchanges, panels. You know, mentoring, frankly, have been some of the things that we’ve chosen to do and Unilever with some of our clients and has been massively successful.

Wendy 
Does that sort of come in at the sort of joint business planning? Is that now on the agenda, as opposed to you know how we’re going to build the what’s beauty look like in whatever? Is that something that’s on the agenda? Now?

Terry T. 
Yes, it does in, I would say, in the vast majority of our joint business planning, the topic of diversity D&I strategies is very simply included, just similar to sustainability initiatives. And so, at the core, it comes back to the shopper, the consumer,

Wendy 
and right up my alley. Thank you.

Terry T. 
I thought you’d appreciate that

Always, always

Terry T.
You’re in the you’re in the center of it all because it is about the shopper. And so any JBP that is going to be successful, it has to start with the insights of the shopper. And if that shopper is now, a good majority of those shoppers are diverse, to have a JBP that doesn’t reflect the needs, the diverse needs, if you will, of the customer, probably is not the most effective JBP. So we’re starting to see it emerge more frequently, to where we have diversity as a strategic pillar in the JBP.

Wendy 
So if you step back for a moment, and you think about your amazing three daughters, and you know, and you think about being very again, commercial, what retail should look like, whether that’s physical, digital, you know, the world you and I live in every day, what do you want the future of retail to look like for them? And as we move forward what are the two or three things we really, as industry have to think about now?

Terry T. 
Yeah, I think, for my daughter’s in her generation beyond, I really hope first and foremost that companies will have advanced the D&I agenda. So that the issues that are prevalent have advanced, and they’re much mature. So if that is the environment, I hope that the things that they experienced in their shopper, their shopping experience, is reflective of their thoughts and their needs. And because everything is changing so fast, and companies, I believe that are going to be the most successful are going to be able to have one-to-one relations with my daughters. Because, yes, they’re the same daughter, same DNA, but they’re all they’re all through different. They have different lengths, they have different ones, they’re different sizes. And so to me, why can’t their shopping experience and why can’t the business experiences meeting their needs actually understand those needs, and can meet them on a level that reflects their mood, that reflects what’s on their mind. And from there, they have a true equity part relationship between brands and service. And my daughters. I think that’s the environment I hope that they can live in.

Wendy 
Yeah, it seems so logical, right? You know, that, that, you know, for you and I who are so focused on the shopper, right, and all the things we do, and the connection between the consumer and the retail environment, that if you listen, and you look and you satisfy the needs and wants, as we always say that, that the the diversity of the population will be included in this amazing thing called retail. And so I often think about that when I walk into a store and I look at the look at the people on the floor who are selling, whether it’s high end or mass or, you know, small or big formats, and I sometimes think am I reflected here, you know, and don’t expect them all to be, you know, redheaded Australians. But you know, that notion of am I welcome in this space, not just in an aisle, not just in a category, but actually do I feel like they see me.  And that’s, that’s a vision that I have, a big, big wish. But then I guess it’s not enough to have the wish anymore, right? We got to get off our tails and make sure it happens. So yeah, I was thinking just sort of as a last thought on all of this, as I look at how some of our retailers that we’re very fond of are now really investing in substantial ways in either building smaller businesses, you know, whether it’s whether it’s, you know, businesses of color, whether it’s women-owned businesses from a Sephora or a Target, you know, a lot of the work that’s going on now. Where do you see that? So it’s not just a moment in time, where do you see this? Do you see this as a moment in time? Or do you see it as a movement where we’re really heading in the right direction and how do we keep it heading in the right direction?

Terry T. 
I do not think it’s a movement. I think that society is not going to let it be a movement if you know that Unfortunately, you know, very sad about the situation that happened in Minnesota again. Yep. And or you have to shoot mass shootings in Knoxville, Tennessee. And so our society is going to one way or the other demand that we’re not we don’t have movements, but that we progress. And to me this is about progression and progression to really value everyone, regardless of their diversity makeup. And to make them feel included or not, you know, tragic things, you know will, people will still feel compelled, and to take actions. And I think we’re going to be tired of it. And so we’re going to want to try and address it. So it won’t be a movement.

Wendy 
And I do think, as every day or mundane as it sounds, the ability to create that progress on the selling floor, you know, where we get our groceries, and when we get our pharmaceuticals and where we, you know, buy our clothes and those things that we need every day, if we can see that movement in the world that you and I live in. That feels to me like it’s a place where we can see change quickly. Well, I can’t thank you enough for this. Now you have great progress. And may we all be able to support you in that in that journey, because it’s never been more important than ever before. So thank you, dear Terry,

Terry T. 
thank you so much, as always, is always it’s a pleasure.

Wendy 
So here’s the thing. What was clear from the conversation with Terry is that if we are to progress and move beyond a social and political moment and movement, we must recognize and address not only the diversity of our organizations, but also inclusiveness, not only of color, but of gender too. And we have to do it from the top down, we have to ensure its intrinsic in every aspect of our companies, you know, if we want to ensure we have the best talent, the best thinkers and retain them, this is now an imperative for all of us. And when we take our brands and services to the selling floor, be at a physical or a digital store, we have to present them in ways that reflect the people who are willing to spend their money on what we sell. It means that the future of retail must be shopper centric, must understand the needs and wants of the increasingly diverse US population and deliver in a way that lets them know they are welcome to our brands and our spaces, because we understand and reflect them in the aisles in the packaging in the media, and reflected also in the faces of the people on the selling floor. As Terry said the shopper is in many ways ahead of us all. We see that now how America shops research, especially younger shoppers who are driving this progress, with or without us beware. So let me say this. When you next walk into a joint business planning meeting with your key customers, and you don’t have DNI on your agenda. Watch out. Not only will that be a critical business misstep, it will ultimately be a shocker loss to you. So that’s the thing. Thanks for joining me, see you in the future.