Wendy 00:10

Hello, everyone. I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and chief shopper at WSL Strategic Retail, and this is Future Shop. This is where I talk to innovators, disruptors and iconoclasts about the future of retail. As many of you know, I am always so admiring of people who wake up one morning and say, let's open a new business. And that's as much because I did that. I come from a family who did that. I have a husband who did that. The thing that's different with my guest today is that she didn't just open a new business by opening a laptop, thinking about services that could be done. She actually decided she was going to need capital, she was going to have product, she was going to build a technology hub to deliver, and she was going to open stores, and that's a whole other kettle of fish. So, I am really thrilled to welcome Anna Harmon, who is the co-founder and CEO of Studs. Anna, welcome to Future Shop.

Anna 01:14

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here

Wendy 01:16

Yeah, me too, before we get started in the conversation today, just a reminder me nagging again, please click Subscribe when you listen to the podcast, whether it's on Spotify or Apple or our own website, wherever you get your podcast, which just helps us know you're there and you can always comment if you feel like it, if you don't. No Obligation cost you nothing. Just click to subscribe. Thanks for doing that. Now onto my conversation with Anna. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to Studs, where you come from.

Anna 01:50

So, I went to Princeton for undergrad. I went to Boston University for law school, and then I practiced for about two years subsequent to law school at a firm in New York City doing mutual fund formation law, which was incredibly boring, as boring as it sounds, um, and then after that, I went to go work at an asset manager in Connecticut called Bridgewater Associates, which is one of the biggest hedge funds in the world. And spent about five years there. And really loved my time there has very unusual culture, which I really gravitated towards. And after that, I left, and I went and joined a series of startups in New York City that were doing that were all consumer facing and doing consumer-based services. So, one of which was a closet organizing service that was tied to trying to create the coolest closet using AI, the next of which was a text to shop service that was being incubated by Walmart called jet black. And those experiences really led me to both identify that I wanted to start my own company, but also that if I were to start my own company, it would be good to do it in the retail services space, because I'd spent a lot of time doing it.

Wendy 02:58

Now I should tell you Anna's mom, who is a is a friend and colleague of mine, is a brilliant marketer in the prestige beauty business for a long time. Also has a startup, not so much a startup anymore, called the butler's closet. So, tell us a bit about Studs, and what the proposition is.

Anna 03:16

Yeah, Studs is an ear piercing and earrings business. We have 33 stores now. We'll have 40 by the end of this year. We are, for lack of a better way to put it, a modern-day version of Claire's for a slightly older customer. And I had the idea when I went to get another piercing probably six years ago now, and ended up getting pierced at a tattoo parlor at, you know, let's call it 34 and I was sort of like, what am I doing here? This is very strange. This is I'm out of personally, out of place. The jewelry was terrible, the piercing experience was good. And I started to wonder what had ever happened to Claire's. And Claire's has a primary competitor or business called piercing pagoda. And when I started to do research, I learned that they were actually very good businesses. Even Claire today is a very good business. And that I was surprised that nobody had innovated on the model. And I think part of the reason that nobody had done that was it's pretty capital-intensive right to do. And then secondly, it's very regulatory complex, which I liked having been a lawyer,

Wendy 04:20

so that proposition now. So, tell us, describe the experience you've got. How many?

Anna 04:26

How many I have? Nine. Yeah, I have nine. I only have seven in right now. But

Wendy 04:31

I have nothing make up for me, because I, as I said to Anna, once, I'm the only person in the world who has no piercing at all.

Anna 04:40

Life is life is long.

Wendy 04:41

Thank you. And some of your earrings. You know, I do feel like I would need many, because there's never too many of anything for me, as you can see wearing today. You who can see. So, I'm fascinated by that. I don't know about nose or lip, but I certainly could do. A lot of ear things going on, but we'll discuss that later, but walk us through, if somebody what, what does? What is that experience now? And so, people can have a frame of reference for Studs.

Anna 05:15

Yeah. So, we are an ear piercing and earrings destination. We only Pierce ears. We only sell earrings. We are highly focused on connecting what were I would say previously, two disparate parts of the customer journey, which is I would go to a tattoo parlor and get my ear pierced, and then I would buy earrings from any number of retailers, small to large. And the reality is that nobody's getting ear piercings to have holes in their ears. They're getting ear piercings to wear earrings. And so, we wanted to connect those consumer experiences in one environment. We also wanted to make it really affordable and accessible from a pricing perspective. And so, lots of different types of earrings, so that you could self-express.

Wendy 05:55

And so, when I think about who comes and how they come to you. How do they find you? Who are they? I mean, when I think about Claire's, I often think about Claire's as a younger shopper, and you alluded to that. But again, you know they were selling jewelry as well as doing piercing. But you know who? Who is that person? Who was you?

Anna 06:16

Our core? Yes, our core customers, 18 to 35 they are predominantly female. They are second piercing and beyond customers. They are customers that have graduated from the Claire's of the world, and you didn't really have a place other than the tattoo parlor to graduate to if you before Studs, right? So, if you had gotten your ears pierced at Claire's and you wanted more piercings as you were becoming more mature, the only place you really had to go prior to Studs was the tattoo parlor.

Wendy 06:48

So that was the white space, right?

Anna 06:51

Exactly.

Wendy 06:52

So, when I think about the stores, I know in New York, I'm familiar with the locations, but as you've expanded beyond that kind of you know, big city, urban is that your intent as you move around? Is it mall based? Is it not mall based? What's the what's the proposition?

Anna 07:10

Yeah, I think we are probably, if you'd asked me when we started Studs, how mall based we would be, I would have said, probably not as much as we are today. And I think part of the reason for that is that as you get behind, as you get beyond, I would say, sort of major urban metros, the reality is the mall, especially what I would call, like the Lifestyle Center, the very elevated, often outdoor mall, is a huge part of shopping and retail culture still, right? And so, I, you know, all these people write them all as dead, sure. I think B and C malls might be dead, but the A mall is very much alive,

Wendy 07:48

Yeah. And I think about that in Los Angeles or in Dallas or in Miami or Chicago,

Anna 07:53

Exactly both. And so, in LA, as an example, we're in multiple malls we're in, and they all have the same landlord we really loved who's done a great job, I think again, keeping the mall relevant.

Wendy 08:05

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we haven't really talked about the very beginning, but as I recall, the very beginning was also during COVID. Days early COVID,

Anna 08:15

yes,

Wendy 08:16

yeah. So, as you choose to or not, choose to remember the pain of that. What was that moment when the business plan was ready? You were moving, and then all of a sudden, COVID hit, and we were all staying at home looking at ourselves in the screen,

Anna 08:31

yeah. So was it, you know, it was both, I would say, good and bad, in a way, the I had it was sort of good for me personally, because we had started the business. We had launched in November of 2019, we had an incredible first store launch where there were lines, there were celebrities. It was, I mean, really strong product market fit. I was also, at the time, probably five or six months pregnant with my first child, and so we had just launched our second store and raised a second round of money in late February, early March of 2020, when the world shut down. So, the positive about it, for me, sort of personally, was, while very stressful time I had my first child, I had six months where we worked from home, like it was a nice, cocooned moment. The positive about it, I would say for Studs is we didn't have that many stores at the time right, so we had only just opened the second we were capable of quickly closing, and we pivoted almost immediately to focus on E commerce, which we hadn't really made a priority as part of the launch, and then made a priority for six months, if not 18 months, honestly. And so, I think that was very good for us, because we, all, you know, to some degree, worked on something that we, I don't think ever might have worked on. And then I think we really started meaningfully reopening stores and opening new stores in late 2020 and then really opening new stores 21 and beyond.

Wendy 09:59

So. That sort of, that's something of fire, whatever that is. Baptism of Fire, literally, right?

Anna 10:06

Yeah, baptism by fire,

Wendy 10:10

when you when your goal was to offer this service experience around piercing and earrings, and you couldn't lay on hands to people in that,

Anna 10:21

yeah,

Wendy 10:22

when you were thinking about the E commerce side of it, how, how did you even, how did you even think about that? What role did that play in those days?

Anna 10:33

Yeah, you know, it was interesting. I think when we had no choice but to focus on it, right, like for us, you know, the lion's share of our revenue had come from the studios, and we didn't have that revenue. And so, we were like, well, we gotta make money somehow. And the interesting thing was, when you think about it in terms of what people were buying during that era, there was this weird phenomenon that happened that when you were on zoom all the time, all of a sudden, people wanted new lipstick, and they wanted new makeup, and they want to do earrings. These is one of the only things you could see. And so, we sort of, like weirdly, benefited from what had happened, which was obviously quite nice. But again, we also didn't really have a choice, right? We had to figure out how to make money. And because there was also so much money being pumped into the economy, these are so much stimulus happening, right? I think we had to show up to the party. And so, our E commerce business grew a lot during that period of time we were off, you know, we were starting from a small base, but we were and we made enough money, I think, to help balance out the period of time when the stores weren't open and

Wendy 11:40

the and the that, the part of that, the sort of distribution part of that, the supply chain, part of that, that came that you really, I mean, yeah, okay, let's do a website. Let's showcase our product.

Anna 11:54

Totally

Wendy 11:55

the right pictures, all of those things. But there's that whole other piece that says, Oh, now we've got to be shipping these products, hopefully, every country, so that too, yeah, by far, baptism by fire...

Anna 12:07

So it was, it's 100% so I would say there were two funny things that happened from that. One was we started dropping product as drops in a sort of, you know, like, call it at the time supreme, like, way. And that was not the plan, but that was the necessity, because the way the product was even being delivered to us was sort of in like drips and drabs, and we weren't all together. And so we would have to come together as, like a very small team in a socially distanced way. Remember those things those days anyway, to, like, look at four or five skews at once and be like, Okay, we're gonna drop this as a collection. We could only we would have to mail it to the photographer, and the photographer would then mail it back to us. It was just, you know, you look back on it and you're like, it was a very, very like, sort of overwrought way to own business. But the one advantage that we had was, you know, and we don't do this today, because we're too big to do this, but at the time, we fulfilled ourselves, right? We had our own little warehouse in our office, and so we weren't subjected to any of the realities that many brands face.

Wendy 13:14

So that learning. So I marvel you went from jet black, which is, I think, probably what Walmart plus, or Walmart, whatever it is now, right,

Anna 13:22

right

Wendy 13:23

With all of that support infrastructure capital coming out of jet.com How did that shape the culture of the company that you have today?

Anna 13:35

I think two things. One, I think we're sort of good at emergency. We've gotten good at emergency, and in some cases, we're, you know, in some to some degree, I guess we're in an emergency right now, right? So I would say we are comfortable with emergency in a way that most companies don't really have to get comfortable, which is probably a good thing. So we're, you know, highly resilient and adaptable, because we've been now through this multiple times. The other thing, though, I would say, is I don't I think COVID deeply changed people opinions about and how people conceive of work as fits into their lives, in a way that's probably overall good societally, but I think it's interesting, like of the things I think COVID has a hangover of it is deeply about work culture, people wanting more and more to be remote, and the value of remote work. I think people putting up incredible boundaries between work and personal in a way that didn't exist prior to COVID.

Wendy 14:34

Yeah, and it does feel like when I think about what Studs is now, I'm always very engaged in this thinking about these, these retail experiences that are also what I would call the laying on of hands, which seem very antithetical to COVID, but having been locked away for those years, that desire, if I'm going to go to a physical place. Yes, then I want to get something done. I want to get it where I want something that I'm passionate about, or I want to be with like minded people, or people who, you know love, whatever it is, piercings. And so I think about that studio experience that you've created. And I also think about like big retailers, and how they in this connected commerce, whatever we want to call it age now say, Well, if people can do all of this online, what is actually going to bring them to the physical space? And what is that? How do we think about our brands in that so when you think about Studs, not just about what you deliver in terms of what people buy, what is that experience in the store, in the studio, actually feel like, what is it? You know, what are you trying to convey? And what brings people back? Or do they come back?

Anna 15:55

I think we're I think we're trying to do two things. One, I think we're trying to create incredible hospitality, and the team deliver incredible hospitality. Incredible hospitality that you feel like it is not a transactional place, that it could be transactional, should you want it to be, but it doesn't have to be, right? So I think, for me, hospitality first and foremost, and then I think the second thing is the store has to feel fun and Instagrammable and like a place you want to bring your friends right to your point around if I'm going to get bothered to go to the store, I have to be enjoy my time in the store, right? I think a lot of that is about the people that work there, but I also think and the experience you have in your room and peers. But I also think a lot of that is about the physical environment feeling fun and welcoming and really different than other stores, and certainly than the tattoo parlor.

Wendy 16:43

Yeah, it also feels, you know, when I look at the stores, I think that it feels very modern and clean, and it's going to be, don't mean to be derogatory, poking holes in parts of my body, that I want that sort of esthetic, them, all of that. But I also want the, how fabulous is that, and what could go with this kind of thing. So it is that due out duality that comes across when I look at the store, when I go into the stores, even though I'm not buying,

Anna 17:15

yeah, I think I, you know, it's, we always call it like, chic Medi spa. That's like, it's supposed to be like, okay,

Wendy 17:21

yeah, that's certainly, that's certainly engaged, um, so that process. So now somebody comes in, gets their ears pierced, and usually they've had a piercing, you said before, so they're sort of more experienced. They do, they always, is that? Do they always tend to buy new earrings at that time, what do they go away, come back, go online. I mean, what's that shopper journey look like when they when they come to Studs,

Anna 17:46

we are predominantly a store and piercing business, right? So most people are coming for their first experience with Studs, to come in and get pierced. And then we are finding more and more, which is really great that they are then moving to shop online, which at some level makes sense, because they're again, when you're getting pierced, you're not getting pierced to have holes in your ears. You're getting pierced to wear earrings. And so once you're piercing heels, you are obviously excited about the prospect of buying and wearing different earrings in it, right? And so our typical customer pattern that we're seeing is acquisition in stores, piercing in stores, moving online shop subsequent to that experience, in particular during sale times.

Wendy 18:27

And then I think about the fashion element to it, and the how much of that when I look at, when I look at what you offer in style, you know, I think about a lot of the classics. And then I think, you know, obviously, a lot, depending on who you are, what, where, how, and you say only years you're not doing noses or lips or bellybutton or any of those things. Then how do you have to think about the collections as it's, you know, is it, I'm making it up 60% you know, consistent, classic, and then, yeah, how does that shift?

Anna 19:05

So it's changed over time. So when we started, I think we thought that the customer would want more novelty from Studs than I think the customer does want. That doesn't mean they don't want novelty, but they want it, I think, with a very specific use case, and so as an example, like, I call these, you know, statement earrings or first low bearings, right? The customer, while customers will buy those from Studs, I would say it is not like the bread and butter of our business. The bread and butter of our businesses, small, dainty things that are more evergreen classics, right? People want some novelty in those, but not a ton, and frequently they don't want to take them out. And that is a big part of piercing culture, which you know as somebody who doesn't have their ears pierced, it's probably new to you, which is some of some piercings just stay in your ears. And so what you're going to wear for those are very different than ones you take out every day. Yeah. Okay,

Wendy 20:00

and then when people so, as you can tell, I'm fascinated by this, you know, now I'm going to get obsessed. And then you have to the only re, I'll tell you, the only reason I don't have pierced ears was in the day, in the day, you had to wear these really ugly little things

Anna 20:17

I know, and that's why Studs exist. Wendy, so you don't have to do that.

Wendy 20:20

That was so disgusting. How would I ever I might I'm not sure how old I was, but and then, of course, I had all my mothers and grandmothers fabulous clip on. So that was that. Anyway, I'm sure you'll have me going down this path very soon. What was I going to say? She so that notion of how, well, how many, on average, how many piercings do people have who come in to you?

Anna 20:42

Seven plus? So a lot.

Wendy 20:44

Yeah, wow. Yeah, that is a one loyal pierced ear shopper.

Anna 20:50

I mean, when you start to look around, and I recommend you do after this, but like, if you look on the street, and you will look at people's ears more closely, you're going to see, wow. Like, people have a lot of piercings.

Wendy 21:00

So when you look at the business now, I mean, obviously you're opening more stores. Is that where the growth will continue to come from, from opening more studios, stores around the country? Yeah, okay, and then that audience, that 18 to 34 is that, you know, is that still the core, or are you seeing, you know, more people older come into this and say they want to participate.

Anna 21:29

I think the brand positioning is very clearly focused on 18 to 34 the reality is, we pierce as young as 13 up to 90 on studio. So Studs is very mercenary. I think again, the positioning is meant for and play older, Gen Z, younger, millennial,

Wendy 21:49

yeah, yeah. So competitively. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in this space, it seems. What do you think about.

Anna 22:02

Look, I think one rising tides, floats, all boats. So I believe that. I also think, like imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? So we have some competitors that are definitely, I think, you know, actively trying to knock us off all the time. I think the bigger thing is, is that the naivete, I think, around competition, is believing that just because you offer the same product in concept, that the customer will respond and basically trade between Two different products when one has better experience, better brand, whatever it is, right? And so, what's interesting about Studs is, when we do customer research, nobody mentions any of the quote, unquote, competitors. They only mention the tattoo parlor, like they are trading between Studs and the tattoo parlor, because that is their perception of what is available to them, right? And I go back to when you think about how many brands of every type of category exist, and why people choose products. They choose products not because, okay, I you know, one deodorant was sold to me next day, I'm gonna try another deodorant. Next day I'm gonna try the third deodorant, etc., right? They don't choose products because many, many brands exist. They choose the best product for them. And if we can continue to deliver that, we win every time.

Wendy 23:27

And it is that building that I'm not going to call it loyalty, I'm calling it reliability, trustworthy, yeah. And I think in really good retail, that level of engagement that says, you see me, I see you, and there's that emotional connection.

Anna 23:46

Think I think about this a lot, and call it CPG, where, when I think about products that I buy, makeup, I'm just constantly trading to what I believe the best new product is, and that doesn't mean I won't experiment with a new brand, but if the product isn't good, it almost doesn't matter, right? And so again, I think product quality is so important, and so many things go into product quality that is the design of our studios, the hospitality experience, or people's understanding of what the brand is meant to represent, the Instagram like, it's not just the can I get pierced at Studs, it's Do I like the brand ecosystem that Studs has created, yeah, and I do

Wendy 24:28

think that's the secret source to use a not very pleasant whatever. And these days that it's all of those pieces. When you look at what is, what is worth it for me as shopper to invest point my time that those elements that you've created both out of necessity during COVID But now in that physical experience, feels like there are so many elements to that that make the experience compelling. So what? Over these now, six years, whatever, how, what are the biggest surprises for you and in all in this journey? Yeah,

Anna 25:10

I would say I think it's a marathon, not a sprint. So, I think that's big part of it, right? Which is, while it we've had a ton of success. I think there's so much more wood to chop. So, it's not like we are by no near means, near the end. So, I think there's that. I think the other thing is you just you learn along the way that if you're not adeptly listening to the customer and what the customer is trying to get out of the experience and the brand, that you're going to be confused and lost. And I think that's where many companies that have initial success often do go awry, where they're sort of like, well, I can now, if they build it, if I build it, they will come like the Field of Dreams quote. And I just don't think that's true as a general point for consumers, but I think that we have been very good about in some ways, like being egoless at Studs right where we're very focused on, what does the customer want from us, and can we meet them where they are right, versus trying to be like we want to meet we want to we have agenda ourselves that the customer may not be interested in,

Wendy 26:15

yeah, that you are preaching to the converted here, because we always say, Follow the shopper to see the future of retail. And if you are constantly listening and not saying, no, it's about me, not about you, exactly, and you fall off the perch really, really, really, really quickly, we are living in somewhat chaotic times, and I'm not sure where all your goods and, sir, good goods come from. But in these moments, that ability, the birth of the company, in the middle of COVID and literally with new baby, how are you? How are you managing?

Anna 26:55

Look, I think everyone would be. Everyone would be. No one would be truthful to say that isn't extremely turbulent. But I think the again, like I said, in some ways, we we've been through like these bizarre times before, and so we have, I would say, good mechanisms of willingness to adapt to them. I think the thing where the times and places I think people get stuck is when they think that they’re sort of reluctant to adapt or late, right? And so, for us, you know, I think it's we've, we've always been early in our cycle of sort of acceptance, if that makes sense. And so, I think we are probably better emotionally positioned to deal with these kinds of things. Is it fun? No, of course, not horrible, and it's changing every two days, so it's even more horrible. Because what is it really right? But I think, can we weather this, of course, and I also want to, like, you know, I was listening to a podcast this morning. That's Scott Galloway. Was talking about how he was the podcast was released this morning. He had been on the phone with a CEO over the weekend, and he was telling the story of a CEO runs this very large publicly traded company, and they're about to inbound all the outdoor furniture for the summer, for people to buy in the next few weeks, you know, anticipating, obviously, the seasonal change, and they have to go pay some like $85 million tariff, because right now, the furniture is on boat, about to land, right? And they have to now come up with $85 million like that is a problem of a scale that I wish Studs had at some level, but we don't. Yeah. And so, I'm also sort of grateful that, like our problem is smaller than that. And also, and I want to acknowledge that like that, there are people and businesses are tremendously more affected by this than we are.

Wendy 28:56

Yeah, yeah. I think you're again, back to the baptism fire, a fire that you had does put you in that mindset that says, okay, what do we need to what do we need to solve first, how do we deal with that? And how do we keep the customer, the shopper, the whatever we call them, in our mind's eye, and all times and, you know, the truth of the matter is, these are times when, if you want to, as was COVID, to build a stronger relationship with your consumer, your shopper. There are so many more opportunities in these times.

Anna 29:36

Totally and I think, you know, we've, I think we have been very in these cases, we are very deliberate about what we want to do so that we don't, you know, basically, I think, cause additional stress or sort of shock to the system, both for our team and for Yeah, well,

Wendy 29:51

that's the other piece, right? And that hospitality as people come in the calm, the calm, appealing, you know, space that people go ah! Thank you. Out of the chaos into the into the Studs experience, yeah, so I get all of that. So last, beyond tariffs, what's next on the horizon, more stores and other things? Yep.

Anna 30:18

So, we'll get to 40 this year. We have an exciting collab coming out with a food brand in about two weeks. We've done a lot of food based collaborations and so feel very excited about this one that's upcoming. And then you'll see just more from a brand perspective toward, you know, in the second half of the year, around partnerships, and they would say, you know, consistently inserting ourselves into the zeitgeist conversation. That's the most important thing for us. Yeah.

Wendy 30:45

Actually, that was a question I was going to ask you, and sort of out of order, and in the scheme of my brain, was those collaborations. And why food? How did those How did that begin? Because one was shoes. Maybe were, you know, whatever, yeah.

Anna 30:59

Again, I think one of the things Studs has done well is that we're very open to go where it like, do things that the customer will be interested in, independent of whether or not they sort of like on paper makes sense. And the customer, from all of our serving and just even, I think from watching media these days, is very interested in cooking food, celebrities, etc., food brands. And so, I think we've become very adept at, okay, well, how can we partner with viral food companies, brands, personalities and as a mechanism to basically reach a new customer, even if it feels unconventional,

Wendy 31:39

and maybe because it feels unconventional. So last question for you, I don't know if you actually have time to shop out of joy or anything else, or family, kids, whatever. Um, yep, when you do, if you do what's, what's a great shopping experience for you?

Anna 31:58

you know, it's funny, I shop mostly online these days. I went into a store and shopped, actually this weekend, in a way that I was like, wow, and I was but I was also the only person in there. So, then it was a little depressing. You know? It's funny. I think great salespeople make great shopping experiences these days, right? Because everyone, when you think about it, everybody has the same product, right? It's not that unique anymore, especially in things like women's apparel, right? So many places are selling the exact same things. And so I had a really great salesperson this weekend, and she knew Studs it came up like in Nashville, in conversation, and was really enthusiastic about the brand. And I bought a bunch of stuff that I think. And it was funny, because one of the things I bought, I never would have bought, would have bought if I had just seen online, because the product photography of the particular thing is not that appealing. But in person, the thing that was pair of pants was great, and I was sort of like, it reminded me of the value of shopping in person.

Wendy 32:55

Yeah, that Yeah, yeah. It is always interesting. When I asked that question, it tends to be whether it's somebody buying a new bike or a new phone or whatever it is a great something. It is that engagement, that and that the story of the relationship that builds not just about what I'm putting on, but rather the story of the discussion and who I met, and how I, yeah, how I how I engage with somebody. So, I think in these times, that feels even more important than ever. So, listen, this was great. I knew it took us. For those of you who were listening, it took Anna and I a long time to get together. We'll blame both our crazy schedules. But I knew when I first met her across a restaurant. I think it was the clam, one of our local favorites and whatever. And was like, this is my daughter. She works at Walmart. Oh no, now she's opened this amazing business. So, thank you mother, Barbara, for all of that, and thank you, Anna for joining today. I feel like we've seen the future of retail right here and in our earrings. Yes,

Anna 34:03

thank you so much for having me.

Wendy 34:04

So that was a fascinating conversation. Anna and I have been trying to get together for a very long time, and it does show you the challenges of being an entrepreneur, starting a business. It also shows us that we are living in chaotic times. Stay tuned for a new piece of research called how America shops in chaos. But we are living in chaotic times, and it requires a way of thinking of flexibility, or an agility to respond accordingly. And certainly, the baptism of fire that we I alluded to many times, was very much that having a concept that you understand is unique and compelling fills a white space in the market. And then all of a sudden, in her case, COVID arrived, and they had to absolutely quickly adapt and change the way they were doing things, build a stronger e commerce model. And then by the time things opened up. Up that connection between their e commerce model and their physical stores really came to play in a much stronger way. But it also talks about what's really important today. We talk about connected commerce a lot. We talk about technology as a driver of our businesses today, but there is nothing, nothing that is more powerful than the human connection, not just through a video screen, but that moment when we walk into a physical space and can react to somebody, whether we walk into Walmart and have a greeter or the Costco person who's running after you to tell you, no, no, you get two for that price, not just one, or the experience when you walk into a specialty store, be it beauty or any or fashion or anything else, that is the secret source when we think about the opportunities at retail today. So, Anna clearly told us that story and so let's not forget we are all human in this journey to see the future of retail. Thanks for joining me today. Always happy to have you on this journey to see the future of retail. See you there soon. Cheers for now you