Wendy 00:02

I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and Chief Shopper at WSL Strategic Retail, and this is Future Shop. This is where I talk to innovators, disruptors and iconoclasts. it just really feels to me like we're at a moment in time when this conversation around the shopper and retail is undergoing a lot of change, or should undergo a lot of change. So I figured, who better to talk about what's next in the world of shopper or in he would say shopping, whether it's an evolution or revolution. His name is Keith slight.He's worked for over 25 years in the CPG space around the world. He's based in the UK, and he's worked in all brand and category areas for really, some of the leading companies, Cadbury's, Kraft, Mondelez, and most recently led the Shopping Center of Excellence at Unilever. So welcome Keith. Lovely to have you on Future Shop.

Keith 01:02

Brilliant. Thank you very much. Wendy, it's lovely to be here.

Wendy 01:05

Before we begin today, as always. Just to remind you, please, if you're listening to this, it really makes a difference. If you just hit that subscribe button, then we know you're out there. You can comment on a podcast. You can toss in a question. But more importantly than anything, it's just those good old KPIs that say you're out there. Do us a favor, anywhere you get your podcast, anywhere you get your podcast, Spotify, Apple, our website, wherever it is. Where it says subscribe, hit, click, doesn't cost you anything. Really appreciate it. Now on with the interview.

Wendy

I think we really are kindred spirits, you and I, Keith, because we've been in this shopping, shopper space, both of us, we've sort of almost grown up in it. When people are saying, huh shopper, isn't it all about the consumer? Just stepping back for a minute, you talk about shopping understanding, as opposed to shopper insights. Tell me about the nuance in all of that.

Keith 02:05

Okay, well, the nuance, for me isn't so much around the understanding and the insight. I think they they could be interchangeable, but I do try and make a distinction between the shopper and shopping. So I know you refer to yourself as the chief shopper. I, too, am a shopper, but when I'm trying to get this across to people, I still find I lose them in the conversation as the distinction between the consumer and the shopper. When my previous CMOS just said, the difference between the consumer and the shopper is they've got their coat on, well, I think, slightly more subtle than that, but what I've been trying to get people to believe is that the shopper, we see, the shopper is important, but it's the behavior that we really need to try and understand. Um, if we can understand the behavior, then we can start to influence the behaviors. But shopping, it's the verb rather than the noun. It's the verb that I want to understand. It's getting people to do things differently when they're in store, be that a physical store or online. That's what I'd love to help brands grow as well. I've got a track record of helping brands grow by understanding the differences we need to make to the online space or the fixtures to make it easier for them to shop.

Wendy 03:12

Thank you for that clarity. I love that, because I'm going to steal that right now. You've been in this business our 25 years. You're going off into a new adventure, and you work for some of the best in this space, what are the biggest changes you've seen? maybe in the last five, six, whatever years you set the time frame.

Keith 03:30

Okay, well, for me, I think the divergence and growth of different channels has really been the change over that time. So if you go right back to the time when I first started going into shopping, then there are still countries in the world which, unbelievably, didn't have supermarkets. Works internationally, in over 50 countries. And now, you know, everywhere has got supermarkets and hyper markets. But that's changing the way those people are shopping in those countries. But most recently, I think it's digital commerce, whether you call it e commerce, e commerce, social commerce, the use of the digital device means that shoppers are better informed. They're able to re rate them and reviews about a product while they're actually at that picture. And we certainly see that dynamism, that interaction of online and offline in a number of emerging markets where supermarkets have never really become established, I would think East Asia or South Asia, and that digital commerce has really changed the way people shop. To me, it seems that the path to purchase are much, much more interwoven now, digital and physical, much, much more complicated than they used to be, because we've got the ability to track those digital touch points, understand those digital touch points. People are trying to monetize those touch points. So, yeah, that there's much, much more data than there used to be, I think, and much, much more complicated paths to purchase than there were.

Wendy 04:58

Yeah, that always strikes me. I was thinking about it in anticipation of our conversation today, and I was just thinking about it. I mean, literally this morning, at 7:15 I was having my coffee, which is usually my moment, and I realized, Oh, gee, I didn't order the groceries yesterday. So there I literally sat with my phone and my coffee, looking out over the Hudson River, and ordered my groceries, which will arrive here at in about an hour and a half. And I thought about, you know, it doesn't mean I don't actually want to go into the cheese shop and get cheese, or I might not on a weekend when I've got more time, but literally, to be able to sit there, look at the list, click and there it's done, has just changed the dynamics of that everyday shopping experience.

Keith 05:51

Yeah, certainly. And you know, the our ability to source products from around the world, where historically, we were at the limitations of whatever grocers were near us, that's changed. The way we find out about products that discovery, particularly in social commerce, the movement from discovery to purchase could be in seconds, because it's in endorsed by someone who we trust. So, yeah, real dynamic change, yeah.

Wendy 06:17

yeah and the other piece to it is, and you, alluded to this already, this sort of sense of we have so much data, right? I see the value of this massive data, but I also worry about the loss of observation, insight that comes out of that. And I know we talk a lot about storytelling, but boy, there are a lot of data people, analytics people, who don't know how to tell a story at all. Should I be worried?

Keith 06:49

I don’t think you should be one worried. You should because, because you can tell a story, because you can mesh all that together, because, if, if you've just got someone who's, you know, there's people who are really skilled at data interrogation. Great, that's really good, but they need to be able to bring it to life, to be able to make it compelling for their audience. And I think especially with digitization, there's going to be even more and more data. You know, if you talk to people in the field, they think the Internet of Things is going to add even more data on it, where you're watching machine talks to your your iPhone or smartphone, other smartphones are available to drive the engagement. You're running out of of capsules, there's even more data going to come from that. So I think there's only ever going to be more data. You know, if you, if you go back in time, it was possible in the seventh time student of history. It might be a guess, by the book, but it was possible, like in the 17th century, to for someone to have read everything that's possible again now, so we have to rely on others to help us interrogate all of this. But doesn't mean just because there's more data is going to be more understanding. Doesn't mean there's going to be time we need someone to help us, to be the guide, to help us say, no, actually, this is really interesting. This is a really interesting observation, because it's different to what we've seen before. And sometimes, if you're only familiar with the data, you don't know what the oddities are, what the unusual behaviors are.

Wendy 08:17

And yeah, so what strikes me of late, as I look around US clients, but also global clients, and you have a very unique perspective, because you've worked in not only big multinationals, where you've worked across their different subsidiaries and countries and things, but also you've lived in other countries. It feels to me like that art and science really requires some different ways of thinking, listening. You'vebeen doing this with lots of cases around the world. How do you begin that journey? How do you stay fresh in that to think about what's going on in the context of people's lives?

Keith 09:01

Yeah, well, I think you've said it in some of your previous podcasts. You know, it's about being curious, being passionate, to be curious. You know, minded. I have been doing this for a while, but something I've always tried to instill my teams and also practice myself, is to be open minded, to think, you know, I don't know it all. I still got a lot to learn, particularly in the emergence of some of these new channels. And I think just being curious, why is it people are doing it the way they're doing it now? Lived and worked in many different countries. I've always tried to think about the curious alien. You know, it's easier to ask difficult questions if you're an outsider. You know, why do we do that? Why is it that you're behaving in that particular way? And sometimes that helps if you've got a slightly different accent, but the you know, you just shouldn't take everything for granted. You know, there's a reason why someone goes to that store versus the other store, and maybe it's just it's easier for their commute. You shouldn't take the assumptions on that. You should try. I am proud to find out what that reality is, and invariably, it will be their previous experience. But, yeah, reminded, being curious, I think crucial.

Wendy 10:09

yeah. I mean, I do think a lot, particularly these days when companies are shrinking workforces and they're combining, sometimes, their consumer and shopper insights that as you think about this next iteration, or evolution, revolution of shopping understanding, how do you see that you can create a workplace environment where you support that curiosity of people getting out, people looking beyond the shelf, digital or physical, those kinds of things?

Keith 10:41

Yeah, really good question. I think we do need to get away from our laptops, although not until this podcast has finished. We do need to get out there and visit the stores, be that online or in person. Online. Obviously you can visit any store anywhere from the comfort of your own sofa with your smartphone, but getting out into the real store is, is reality? Is the retail reality? Reality of retail, the what we see on the PowerPoint in the head office presentation is very seldom what actually happens on the shop floor, and it's important to bring that to life. I know you do retail immersions and safaris, and I think they're absolutely crucial, because it you need to experience that it's not just in the flagship stores, but in the everyday stores, understanding what's going on, understanding what is actually happening, what is driving the consumer behavior. And sometimes it takes you to go to the store, to see the fixturization, to see the products on the shelf, to see the out of stocks, realize why people are behaving, what they're moving, and you may not see that in the spreadsheet or in the photograph.

Wendy 11:46

The other thing that's interesting, yeah, the other thing is, sorry to interrupt. The other thing that's interesting in that, and we often do it, you know, as part of either some workshop work or before one of our Retail Safaris®, is give people a homework assignment where we remind them that they to our shoppers, right, or they are buyers of goods and services but that whole sense of the things sometimes we wouldn't put up with ourselves when we're spending our own money. We go back to our desk and we create these things, and we're like, we lose that. And I know in a world of, you know, objectivity and, you know, big risk when you're investing in things, you know, we try to be much more measured in that. I think we lose that emotional context or emotional connection to who we are as people. Do you, as you think about again, all your learnings from around the world. How do we keep people how do we remind people of that, as well as being the professionals they are.

Keith 12:49

Okay, I think that that is you just summed it up really well in the in the end there, when you're saying they're the professional, they are the professionals. You know, I work with lots of marketers and lots of people in sales, and they are the professionals. They're paid to care about the packaging Web. They are paid to care about the display in store and it's and they are not the consumer. They are consumers. They do buy the goods and services without a shadow of a doubt, but it's helping them to see it the way people see it, the way non-marketers is the way non sales people see it. Those are the crucial things. So we've recently done a program called unmissable point of sale materials, and there is about bringing that to life for people, to getting them to see what other people would see in the store or online, what how it comes to life for them. Because the marketers are obviously giving a lot of attention, but arguably too much attention compared to how much processing people would do in the store or online, and it's just trying to build that empathy. Yes, the tasks really work, but I find they work really better if it's not in a category they work on, because their attention to that category is really, really strong. So we used to do an exercise where “imagined world’ so marketeers working in confectionery, we think about creating a new mobile phone, and then the opportunities they came up with were so much broader, so many more varied than if you said, just do another chocolate bar, because they'd already thought through all the limitations and all that that. But for me, market research is always about de-risking the opportunities by better understanding what will actually resonate with people, and helping my colleagues to see that they aren't the consumer or the shopper. They aren't the consumer because they care so much about that particular element. We've got to get them back to thinking about it in terms of how much time are people going to give online? How much time are they going to give it at shelf, which invariably is just going to be seconds. And we would have spent hours in a meeting, discussing the concept, discussing the the point of sale, which isn't appropriate given how little time will actually get processed in store or online.

Wendy 14:55

Yeah, that's fascinating to me. Our goal is always to make sure we don't we have a broader group in the room, because so often it's the lawyers or the HR people who come up with the best idea, because they're not engaged in the category every day, all day. You know, their KPIs are not that.

Keith 15:14

Yeah, I've experienced that myself. You know, I might have been the finest person who came up with the best idea, because they weren't restricted by the limitations of the of what was possible, they were coming up with radical ideas which often had had good potential.

Wendy 15:27

Yeah, yeah. You know, I The other thing adding to the pot of data and information that we have now, of course, now the retailers are building out all their own data, whether and their whole retail media platforms, how is the how are the best ways for CPG companies to then collaborate with the retailer and their data to benefit the person buying, aka the shopper.

Keith 15:55

Long before I started into this, this particular space, I actually worked in a retail, now defunct UK based retailer called Quick Save, a discount retailer longer established in the UK than, say, Aldi and Lidl. When I was working there, I was working across categories, helping do the category range reviews, but we were doing so many and I my data responsibilities were so broad that I could never go to the depth of understanding that the supply is good, and we relied a lot on the suppliers, because they had a depth of understanding through their own market research that tend to bring real good value to the to the table. I think the same is, is still true now, because, you know, a retailer has an amazing amount of data. You know, it's quite remarkable how much data that Amazon has, or Carrefour or Tesco on their shoppers, or whether that's from their loyalty card, the retail media, they alluded to, from the epoch sales from the catchments of the stores, all the other services that the retailers provide, but they don't necessarily have the context and they will know their rich customer in their stores in great, great detail, but what they may not have is the context of that shopper in other retailers. So working with one of my colleagues, Laura and marks, we did an amazing project for Amazon, which was able to show that to Amazon, who had so much data, just what was happening of the Amazon shoppers in Target or in Walmart, which they didn't have any visibility of. So I think there's an amazing opportunity for suppliers to bring to the retailers context, to bring in additional information to help show the depth of understanding of the category to segments and levels and usage that maybe the retailers don't

Wendy 17:39

yeah, you know, it's so interesting you say that you reminded me one of the major grocery retailers here, I was asked to do a presentation. And they have through Dunhumby, and now they're, they're, they're much touted, 84:51 okay, it's Kroger. But I was asked by a manufacturer client to come and do a presentation to them, because they were visiting and, you know, showing their wares. And I said, These people had so much data. Why do you know if I come in here now and I'm going to tell them about their shopper? And what I realized, of course, was exactly what you said, they have so much data, but it's very within the confines of their business and their trips and their purchasing and their categories, etc, and that contextual side of things, where they didn't understand all the other places that person was shopping was a huge miss and actually provided some great insight. So I was quite apologetic upfront, saying, Oh, I can't believe I'm telling you things like this. And they were like, Oh, thank you for telling us. More than ever with all the information that's around that collaboration seems even more valuable, and it sounds like you feel the same way

Keith 23:18:56

I do, yeah, and certainly, I think in a time when growth is limited. That's when the collaboration comes to the fore, not necessarily every any one person has got the answer,

Wendy 19:05

Yeah. And sorry, and that that raises another question for you, because it's where you started. If we step back and think about now, what that journey looks like on any day, right? I'm coming to buy shampoo. I'm coming to buy ice cream, whatever it is, I'm the same person we had, we did some work. One of the quotes from the shopper, from the person buying, was, you know, I'm like Alice in Wonderland. Sometimes I need a very big door, and sometimes I need a very small door. And it was just so prophetic, really so with all the new places. How do you if you're a big or a small global brand like you've worked on, how do you I mean this fragmentation and this need for growth and the need for profitability? How do we even think about that today? How do you get your head around it from all your. Experience?

Keith 20:00

Yeah, well, I start with the end in mind. So what's the problem we're trying to solve for? Have we got a clear articulation of that, or do we actually need to, under have a conversation, or even do some research to find out what problem we're trying to solve for? But then I try and build empathy with the with the person we're trying to solve the problem for. You know, with core market research skills, going out, doing the things you talked about earlier. You know, doing safaris, doing observations, trying to build up that understanding, and then trying to find a decent fact based to be able to identify what the particular problem is we need to solve for. I think there are lots of big opportunities still. You know, from space work I do in store, there are good proportion of shoppers that go up to the fixture actively engage with it, whether that's in store or online. and then they don't purchase. But if we can work out why that is the case, what's that conversion gap?. But often that doesn't show up in the data, because it's not going to be in the loyalty card data or the purchase panel data or the data, because those are purchases. But if we take a step back and actually look at the behavior, look at why someone went to the fixture but then didn't come away with a product in their hand, and that's both opportunities,

Wendy 21:14

Where do you see the biggest opportunities to rethink how we build these organizations internally now for the future.

Keith 21:23

Yeah, no, there is a lot of change, and there's certainly a lot of opportunity. You know, we talked about big data earlier, but there's also AI. AI is going to have a huge amount of analysis that's going to be possible that we weren't able to do with that huge amount of data that we've got, but I think you need to be able to work out, what are the problems we're trying to solve, and work out, you know, does it matter if it's someone who's solving that problem from a data background or from a market research background? Well, no, as long as the problem gets solved. But I think we need to think broader. You know, it shouldn't be about the data silo, analytics silo, search silo, or a consumer or shopper silo. But what's the business problem we're trying to solve? How are we going to use the best tools to do that? And the best people within that? From my experience, the best solutions have been collaborative. You know, mentioned that unmissable point of sale materials program I worked on, and that didn't have one functional owner. We worked across sales, activation, procurement and market research, and honestly, it's one of the best projects I've ever worked in, because we all brought something to the mix, and we all drove it further forward. But I think huge opportunities at the minute, but they need someone needs to take it and say, look, we need to overcome the silo problem and overcome that issue and work towards a common solution, rather than get broken about who owns what?

Wendy 22:47

Yeah, I love that idea of collaboration. I mean, that's such a big part of what we do. Who do you have in the Who do you need in the room? We've been doing some, yeah, we've been doing some work recently for a one of our retail clients, and, you know, really talking about how they think about their loyalty program. We also had the operators, the store operators, the people who worked in the store, in the room, because it just, first of all, gave us the whole view, but it also these were people who were on the ground all the time, who so often know so much more than we do, if we're, again, to your point, sitting at our desks and all of that. So that feels like, when you raise that about in that project you did, who do we want in the room to help answer the question? Or think about how we get to answer the question? Yeah,

Keith 23:40

Yeah, exactly. And you know, there shouldn't be one, just one voice. You need that multi multitude of those different perspectives, like you said earlier, could be someone from HR or someone from legal who's got a better perspective on that particular issue. So, yeah, can't have them not invented here. Need to be broader than the sources that we look through, and because, you know, we need the growth. So let's, let's mine unfamiliar territory to fly in the gym

Wendy 24:09

So when, what's your position on loyalty and loyalty programs and how we need to think about those in the future?

Keith 24:18

Yeah, I think they do matter. You know, I've definitely seeing that in the UK at the minute about other countries. You know, it's important too, where people are using those to get to better value. That's ultimately what they want better. Brought their their goods and services, and if they're there's some sort of data exchange or value exchange, then ultimately good. I'm not sure it does be build loyalty in the dictionary definition sense of spend more of my money with you, because I think there are other considerations, you know, like I said earlier, works in different markets, and often things that may seem inconsequential, like, how easy is it to part? How. Easy is the commute. How easy can I leave for the supermarket after I finish? Those are considerations which impact on on how people shop is. I believe it's not just about price. It's also about value for effort, time as well as value for money. So we need to understand all those things and loyalty, the cards and loyalty data systems give us a much, much more understanding about the consumer. But in my wallet, I've got about five or six loyalty and they use occasions based on where I happen to be shopping on that day, rather than because,

Wendy 25:35

yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, it's like you're talking about shopping understanding. I think that I think I've gotten to the point where I think words matter, and that sometimes when we slap a thing like loyalty on a program or anything else, we lose the again context, and we lose that understand, more emotional understanding of what's driving the behavior, as opposed to just thinking, Oh, well, they've got the card, they've signed up, or whatever it is. So, yeah, I do. I must say, I find myself challenging a lot of the terms we've used for a decade or decades as we think about what the what the future looks like, you talked about AI…Have you, in your recent, in your recent work, seen any examples of where that's come to play and really been valuable as a way to to understand, answer a question, things like that?

Keith 26:37

Oh, yes, certainly, yeah. I think, you know, it's a amazing tool that we've used it really effectively for vision recognition, understanding different types of primary image. We've used it effectively to understand different types of point of sale materials as well and their impact. We've used it to help us just get through amazing amounts of data much more quickly than we could ever done. And I without AI, and I think it's, it's here to stay. You know, you'd be foolish to try and say you can stand and stop the tide on AI. But I think we need to be realistic as well, because I don't think consumers mind if it's AI. I don't think they even know on one of your previous or someone from Amazon was saying that Amazon recommendation tool is AI, well, do they know? Do they care? No, it gives them a recommendation and they like it. And it's that that we need to think about. What does it make it easier for people to achieve their end goal, to get the services that they want? If it's through AI that I've been great, but we also see the opposite, arguably the opposite, where ratings and reviews of just a few people sway someone's decision, because those are people like me, and I trust that that's that's the truth, not 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of perspectives, different people, because but then the AI could have done that synthesis for you. So it is interesting. There's a real behavior change driven by AI, but I'm not entirely sure people are aware that it's aI that's struggling, which is an interesting situation.

Wendy 28:06

Yeah, you're right. That's exactly what Justin Honaman talks about. We've had this around, this machine learning, for a long time, that the currency of it and this sophistication of it is really growing and and as Justin always says, you know, you've gotta at least experiment with this I'm eager to know where you're, where you are on your journey now?

Keith 28:28

okay, well, I've only just left a Unilever in March, so now I'm exploring other opportunities, trying to find what's next for me and what's right for me. At the minute, in the interim, I'm working with some challenger brands to help them benefit from, hopefully, benefit from my experience, set myself up as a little market research boutique agency to help them deliver on that. And while I look for what other opportunities are out there, I feel I've still got a lot to offer because of that breadth of experience, which is, yeah, you know, there aren’t many people with that many years experience. In this space, so hopefully I'll find the next, the next big thing. But if there isn't a big thing, doesn't matter. I've got lots of other things to keep me occupied with, a different challenge of brands and different opportunities. But yeah, always open to have conversations like this with people who find this topic exciting, because I think there's a huge opportunity still,

Wendy 29:21

the point you just raised of Challenger brands, you know, the level of innovation that's not actually coming necessarily from big multinationals or even just large, you know, single country companies in the marketing space and seeing all that excitement. But then, how do you take that challenger brand? How do you help it? The podcast that just released yesterday with Diana Melencio from XRC ventures, where they invest in, you know, and help accelerate brands in the health, beauty and tech space. She was also talking a lot about, you know, starter brands, younger you. Startup brands that actually, they do all their own market research by asking two friends, two friends, 10 friends, 1000 friends, friends and family, and then starting to build or innovate in categories where there's a passion

Keith 30:14

yeah, and I think there is a, there's a big opportunity there. I think, you know, the asking the friends and your friends and friends that will get you so far, and it and it does give a lot of credibility and authenticity to certain brands, but to get to the next level, and the next level, they think about it a bit differently, I think, and that's where, you know, hopefully I can be able to help, because what gets you in through the door isn't necessarily gets you into 500 stores, and there is that, that tipping point where you can get a few listings, but it's how do you get the right conversation and the right data to back that up, to convince the buyer?

Wendy 30:54

No, no, I think that's the other piece. And so much as you know of the work we do beyond the you know, the the insights work, the understanding work, but then bringing together the company, the manufacturer, and the retailer, physical or digital, in service of the shopper. So just wrapping up here, you know who's inspired you lately? I mean, brands, retailers. You love this work. Is there somebody out there that you've seen that you go, like, Wow, that's great work.

Keith 31:26

Yeah, I’m recently in the Netherlands, I thought Albert Heijn did really well there. I thought they particularly their small store format. There's lots of people have entered into that space and try it. But I thought they got their food on the go off for just right? I thought they were good. You know, in the UK, we've got some amazing supermarkets. I'm always in awe of Amazon. Just always keep trying, test and land, test and land, and keep something new. But, yeah, there's, you know, there's a lot going on in this space at the minute, I think is really exciting, and I want to see who's going to crack social commerce. So much excitement about that space, but you know, it's, how does it fit into everybody's everyday life? Yes, the dopamine excitement of exposure to a new product. But then how does that get back down to the more routine replenishment shopping.

Wendy 32:22

lots of questions still to be answered. So aside from Albert Heijn, um favorite personal shopping experience lately, what's on your shelf behind you that you bought that other people can't see, or something?

Keith 32:38

I just love it when the store, local store, knows who I am. You know, see behind me, I'm a bit of I like a book or two, and the local bookshop to me, they recognize me when I come through the door, greet me by my name. I saw you like that. Have you tried this one? I mean, that sort of service is exceptional, and, and why, but, you know, if you get that, then you've gotta hold on to it.

Wendy 33:04

Well, yeah, absolutely, right, absolutely I can think of so many of those. You just make me smile. Sometimes. I used to think it was because I grew up in the bush you know, you grew up in a small town, and everybody knows you, and you think, Oh, I better get out of here before I get in trouble. And then you just a, you know, sort of find yourself coming back to that, because if somebody says hello, even if just because they read the credit card, oh, hello, Wendy, you're like, Wow, isn't that nice? So that's a in a digital age, in an age of way too much data, sometimes I think that what I would call the laying on of hands and looking you in the eye and recognizing who you are is incredibly powerful, whether you use the data to do that or they just remember our lovely faces. That's

Keith 33:47

So yeah, well, that's where, that's where we want to get to with that personalization, isn't it? That sort of level of service and understanding of us as a, as a, as a customer, that a good local retailer will know because they're good local retailers,

Wendy 34:03

yeah, exactly, even if they're a big chain, that they could be a good, really local retailer, because they understand the context, the community, all of those things. I think that's really, you're right. That's the that's the sweet space that we can come to with that combination of both data, insight, empathy, all of those things that come together. Well, I can't thank you enough for this. I I knew that your your thoughtfulness about where all of this understanding, shopping understanding, is going, and how we need to think about that is I knew it would just sort of frame up this conversation and thinking about what, what our communities need to do about this as we, as we move forward. Thank

Keith 34:47

Brilliant. Thank you very much. Wendy, it's been a pleasure.

Wendy 34:49

You know, I was really keen to have Keith with me today, because I do feel like we're at that moment as companies, thinking about everything from Pro. Profitability and how they use their own data and and how they think about engaging from a consumer and shopper standpoint. How do we need to collaborate together with different disciplines, from manufacturer to retailer to different people within the silos, to really understand where the opportunities are in the future. And I think as we, many of us, we think about what our centers of excellence ,that level of collaboration becomes more and more important, that level of empathy, that level of curiosity, becomes more and more important. And it cannot be understated, if you want to see the future of retail, we'll see you there. Cheers for now. Bye.