Wendy Liebmann 00:09

Hello, everyone. I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and Chief Shopper at WSL Strategic Retail, and this is Future Shop. Today, my guest is Rachel Marler. She is the Chief Commercial Officer for North America for Lifestyles. Lifestyles is the brand that you will know best under the SKYN condom brand, and her focus on intimate wellness is what we're going to talk about today. I first met her when she was at Haleon, I think, she'll correct me if I'm wrong, and before that she was at Walmart for 7, 8, 9 years. She'll tell you all about that, and has a background in consumer packaged goods before that, at Gillette and P&G and Tyson and Kimberly Clark. So, brings a tremendous amount to this discussion today. Welcome, Rachel.

Rachel Marler 00:59

Thank you, Wendy. Always a pleasure to be able to chat with you.

Wendy Liebmann 01:03

I was really pleased to have you here today, because, as you well know, we do a lot of work, amongst other spaces, in the health and wellness space, and are very keen to understand the evolving landscape of sexual health and wellness, and so you've seen that from a number of sides. And to me, the conversations and the work you're doing around intimate health and wellness with men, but men and women, and your experience at retail and consumer goods really seems to me to be a background that can help unravel some of the areas of opportunity and some of the challenges in this. So that long introduction. Tell everybody a little bit about your background, and, and what you are now bringing to this business at Lifestyles.

Rachel Marler 01:52

Yes, well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be with you. I know we've been talking about wellness for the past few years, and then I did an additional deep dive into wellness by joining Lifestyles and really focusing more on sexual wellness, which is, you know, your physical wellness as well as your, your mental wellness. I joined Lifestyles a year and a half ago, which was actually, ironically, an Australian-owned company for over 100 years. Now, I joined it while it's private equity backed. We're small and agile. It's my first time working at a Challenger brand, and I couldn't be more fortunate to be working on the SKYN brand. It's been growing over six years, double digit, the brand's been around 15 years, it's growing the category, and I just love it. I mean, everything we do, we learn and we grow, and everything we do is a lot of work, but this is fun, as you can imagine.

Wendy Liebmann 02:56

except for supply chain issues, right? everybody, everybody should know that whenever poor Rachel, well, poor everybody in this sort of space, in any CPG or retail space over the last few years, if it's not COVID challenges, you know, then then we're into the war challenges and the Gulf and oil and all of these things. And I must say, if I were a young person today getting an education, I would not be thinking about AI, and actually any of the technology, I'd be thinking about how to be the best supply chain person in the world.

Rachel Marler 03:36

I agree, supply chain does seem like a good career opportunity.

Wendy Liebmann 03:40

Yes, it does indeed. Anyway, so let's talk about this. I mean, the whole conversation, and focus around sexual health and wellness for women and men. Because, even though you're in the condom business, I mean, clearly that has benefits for many genders in all of this, but but what do you think? There seems to be a much more open discussion today about sexual health and wellness and well-being.

Rachel Marler 04:04

No, it's actually, you're correct. The environment in the US has definitely become way more open to sexual health. While, I'm in the condom business, we actually work across condoms, lubricants, and devices and toys, and 50% of our shoppers are female, which is very unique in the condom business. So, our product does very well, not only with both genders, but all different groups. This environment that we're in, it's such a pleasurable time to be joining the company, and I think it's really, everyone's been more open to discussing sexual health. I call it the awakening of America. It's not just women. So we are now, we feel way more emboldened, not only to talk about our own intimate health and wellness, but about menopause, perimenopause, we speak with our friends, we speak with our doctors, etc. But men, too, are way more open about it. I think the most fascinating thing that's happened since I've joined Lifestyles, I'm pretty bold about telling people where I work, what I work on, if I'm on the plane, someone asks me what I do. It doesn't matter their gender and their age, they lean in and they want to have the conversation, which is pretty phenomenal. I mean, we do, as you know, Wendy, because you grew up in another country, we are still in the US very far behind on the conversation and a lot of the products that are available over the counter and in the way we can educate and advertise, it's a restricted category.

Wendy Liebmann 05:44

We did a piece of work a couple of years ago and the switch area in men's sexual health, and part of it was really to look around the world to see how other countries dealt with this, dealt with switches, dealt with men's sexual health, you know the role of the pharmacist, etc. etc. and how to roll out these businesses. And what was fascinating to me, also coming from Australia, was how behind we are in this country in the discussions, and so I'm glad to hear you say that you feel like it's opening up a little bit, because it also feels to me like from a generational standpoint that the better educated people are, the better able they are to take control and manage their sexual health and wellness. When you look around the world, you know, who are the leaders, either countries or retailers globally, who seem to get this better than we do?

Rachel Marler 06:37

Well, I'd say the majority of countries.

Wendy Liebmann 06:40

Well, there you go.

Rachel Marler 06:42

So, if we, I have two examples. So, when I was at Haleon, we launched Eroxon, which is an over the counter erectile dysfunction gel. And the fact that we can have that conversation now, about erectile dysfunction and how prevalent it is with not just older men, but younger men, too, is a big stepping stone. But in countries like the UK, if you look at the UK market, Cialis and Viagra have been over the counter for, for like years, and that still has not passed through our government. The other thing that I was reflecting on when I was getting ready for our conversation is my children were in school in Canada. One was in middle school and the other was in high school, and their sexual health education was phenomenal. I mean, it was so detailed, and it just really hit on all the right points that you need to know, especially when you're in high school. And I know my daughter was, it's a whole separate class, and she was very stressed out about this very intense exam she had to have. I was like, how hard could this be? And they literally had to memorize for every type of birth control, the percent efficacy for everything out there, every type of sexually transmitted disease, what they are, how do you treat it? And then the fascinating one that still makes me laugh. She quizzed me at the dinner table. My daughter said to me, there's 10 steps to making love, Mom. Do you know all 10? And, of course, I was like, what are you talking about?

Wendy Liebmann 08:21

And how old are you?

Rachel Marler 08:22

And is this a table discussion? But we did have it with my son at the table too. And of course, the newer one is consent in there. But it was just, I was very impressed with the education system.

Wendy Liebmann 08:37

Yeah, yeah, and then openness in many other countries, as a health, a focus on good health and taking care of good health for younger people and older people, and not being afraid to, you know, ask questions and be knowledgeable. We do our How America Shops® research, and last year we did a piece of work where we did talk to men and women on a national scale, looking at where they went for information around their sexual health and wellness, who they trusted, the kinds of topics, and you're right. I mean, men and women, different topics, but men much more open than they had been, and women, you know, dealing with obviously lots of discussion around menopause and perimenopause and just sexual pleasure in a way that was much more open, that I think started with Sex and the City.

Rachel Marler 09:25

 I do think actually Sex and the City started the discussion, and people could have it more. And you know, younger people, I know we're obviously of the age where we talk about menopause, perimenopause, post menopause, but younger women now really discuss this because they don't want to be on hormones. It was very normal for all of us, birth control or whatever, people were using condoms, etc. But to have the discussion about not wanting hormonal medication. And really changes your options, and the discussion. Yeah.

Wendy Liebmann 10:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the ability to have the discussion openly and do your homework, as we, you know, try to take control of our own bodies and minds. I do still find when I walk into a retail store, I'm always stunned that everything from tampons to condoms seem to be hidden in the back corner of places, or if they're not, they're in a dark aisle somewhere. But on the shelves now, there are, as you said, toys, there are, you know, lubricants, there are all these things with amazing names, and they're kind of- there's not much information. It's just like, okay, well, find it for yourself and do your own homework. We're not helping you, we're just here. So, is that.. is that something you're seeing, or am I just biased in my frustration of all of that? Are the retailers doing a better job than they used to? Is there more room to do a better job?

Rachel Marler 10:56

Yes. So here's, here's what I would say: quite a few retailers are doing a much better job from where they, where they came from, right? They're getting permission. What we're finding are the merchants in these categories, the buyers, merchants, the ones who are in intimate wellness, sexual wellness, period products, fem hygiene. They're so passionate about helping their shopper, their male shopper, female shopper, etc. and they're breaking a lot of barriers. They're getting these toys on the shelf. They're getting male toys on the shelf, which, which is a big deal, especially with the Midwest retailers. One of the buyers told me she had to present to the board to show them that it was normal that these products are out at other big mass retailers like Walmart and Target, and why shouldn't they have it? All that being said, there's still so much more room to grow. I mean, if you think about it, it is, can be an embarrassing category for some people, especially standing in the store, and then think about it as a man, right? You're standing in the store, and that category, sexual wellness, is usually right next to fem hygiene, period here. So that's awkward enough if you're a man looking at the products, and then a lot of the products that they want to look at, aside from, you know, our amazing SKYN condoms, would be delaying sprays, erectile dysfunction. There's a lot of supplements now that are on the shelves that are, you know, very interesting to them. There's one called, like, Horny Goat Weed, and there's other supplements to help men last longer, etc. But they're- it's hard to see on the shelf, so like our SKYN condoms stand out because we have like beautiful black packaging, but when the aisles are dark, the lighting is not there, there's not education, so I do think it becomes a difficult category to meet all of your needs.

Rachel Marler 10:56

I think so. I mean, I think once again, that's it's amazing that now in the US you can have, you know, direct to consumer, you have "hims", you can get your prescriptions immediately. There's commercials out there about all the fabulous pills or different ways, you know, you can improve your sex life, right? And relationships, and at our company, we really talk a lot about joint pleasure, and really it's about both people or whatever your relationship is. "hims" does a good job, and they do have some products that are out on the shelf. Once again, it's very hard to find those products. I think CVS and Walgreens have really tried to expand their sets more. It's just the lighting is not there, it's not health and beauty, and it should be, it should be thought of as wellness and beauty.

Wendy Liebmann 11:42

Yeah, I was thinking the other day, I was also in a Target, and looking at what they were doing around men's grooming. And I was thinking, you know, and you and I were at NACDS, and we listened to the target team talk about their focus on men's grooming. And I looked at the shelf, and I thought, well, isn't this part of, you know, the whole male picture, and isn't there a way that, you know, men could feel more comfortable? To your point, there are lots of products in lots of different parts of the store, and again, no room to kind of, you know, immerse yourself, study, get some learning, all of those sorts of things. So, I get this, is anybody doing that here? Or what do you see if you're in shoppers in Canada, or Jean Coutu, or somewhere in, you know, Europe? Do you see a different style of merchandising there than we have here?

Wendy Liebmann 12:05

Yeah, well, and you know, we see it. I mean, clearly, even in the women's area, there's this room for improvement there, but it's just been interesting watching the direct to consumer, the subscription, the, you know, the sort of digital e-commerce, whatever. Click here and ship it home in a brown bag or something, that sort of sense of, not the underworld, but that, that other world of retail that's really grown or growing because of the lack of comfort or invitingness. I suppose, inviting people to come in and look and study in a formal way. It doesn't just be lascivious or anything, if that's the word. But also to your point about, you talk about education and your kids' education in Canada. I mean, again, it's not, you know, in a dark hidden place, it's open and taking care of your, your overall health and wellness. So, I think that's a, that's a good lean in, but you know, as you and I know, having lived in other places, there's a very conservative view to some of those things here. So, I think that's the, that's, that's the other piece of all of this. When you think about where men and women, to your point with with SKYN and and pleasure and partnering, where they're going for information these days. I mean, do you see anything new and different in that in that space now with social media and social commerce? Are you seeing anything, you know, for your business and others?

Rachel Marler 12:28

I haven't seen it laid out extremely well. I think Target does a good job, that male aisle, that section, it's an amazing start. They are definitely the leaders in the US of having an amazing start to it, and I think CVS has one aisle that's pretty good for male products, but both of those don't have the total solution. You know, I came from Gillette. I came from the best a man can get, razors, shaving, and you can tell in that target aisle, like I said, it's a good start, but honestly, you can tell who helped create that whole area. There's a lot of razors, wet-dry razors, electric razors, deodorants, soap, shower gel, blah blah blah, and it's all made by pretty much the same big conglomerate. There's some cool new startups, right, with Papatui and Dr. Squatch and stuff, but it doesn't have that whole solution of I'm a man, I want better skincare, I'm worried about going bald. Like that seems to be a prevalent conversation every time I'm around with male counterparts, they're worried about their hair situation, they're worried about their sexual health, and how do they pro- like it's just not all together. And it's interesting, because Canada, like, we do well across all of our categories, lubricants and toys and condoms. I's not so much just so a condom category in Canada, but the shelves still look very traditional. They haven't broken any barriers.

Wendy Liebmann 12:28

Yeah, do you think the likes of "hims", and to your point, startups changed the conversation somewhat because of the way they approached men's health?

Rachel Marler 18:18

Yeah, I would say, like, the good news is people are really starting to have conversations with each other, right? Probably females a lot more when you're around a group of females. The conversation always does come up about how's your health? What are you doing for your health? What supplements are you using? If I'm in the conversation, I will say, how's your sex life? How's your relationship? And people are very open to having that conversation. You know, obviously, online, there's influencers, there's quite a few influencers out there that are very, that have huge followings, and we'll have this conversation. There's a lot of startup companies and challenger brands, and that's great that they're out there. TikTok, TikTok has been a great way to open up the conversation. Now, in terms of TikTok Shop, they're also restrictive, which is interesting, but there's a downside to social media, and the way that people do research. You know, I think about young men, they're getting online, they're learning about sex, and there's, you know, there's a lot of videos out there that aren't about joint pleasure, there's, you know, videos that might be more about violence or more about how do you make yourself look better.

Wendy Liebmann 19:46

Yeah, and to your point, the benefits of social media potentially opening up the conversation, and the problems with social media when they, you know, again, direct, particularly younger people, but anybody you know into that realm of things that aren't, again, open and well documented and supported. So I wonder a lot about that in the context of the opportunities for retailers who are trusted, whether it's with a pharmacist or whether it's, you know, a store that people shop at and trust on a regular basis, physical or digital, and that openness of the conversation, which at least gives some guidance or guardrails. When you think about opportunities, categories, things that the industry at large is missing, not just where it's put, but are there, I mean, you look at SKYN as a, as a whole intimate wellness business and brand are there areas that are, I mean, underdeveloped, and areas that, that you think in terms of better presentation or representation, are an opportunity for the retailers?

Rachel Marler 20:51

Yes, I do. I mean, if we take it like broad strokes for all the retailers, doing more with e-commerce and having more, more education and more ways to talk about the products that really benefit and help people to explore and really lean in more and understand the physical health benefits, like there's heart health benefits. There's mental health benefits. So that, that would be amazing. And we've started to have those conversations, and then for the categories, too, you know, condoms, if we take that quickly, thinner condoms, like our condoms, are not latex, they're a patented polyisoprene. So they're stretchier, they're more supple, and you just better have better heat transfer. So our tagline's like "feel everything" right? But thinner condoms in general, the lubricant category. Oh my gosh, there's so much more for men and women to explore, really understand that it only enhances the whole, the whole experience, and there's so many different types of lubricants out there, and understanding silicone versus water-based. There's products out there where they're condoms or toys that have texture, and just really, we talk about our core audience, our sex floors, there are people who just really want to bring their relationship up to another level. They want to enjoy themselves more. There's opportunities there, and really, I think the biggest, biggest one out there is really blending beauty and wellness. How do we all do that more? Whether it's my company, other companies, like we launched our SKYN hydrocomfort lubricant, and it has hyaluronic acid in it, so you know, you moisturize your face, you have to moisturize all your body parts. And people don't think about that. So, really taking all that learning from dermatologists and beauty experts and bringing that more to the forefront.

Wendy Liebmann 22:58

Yeah, I think it's so interesting too, because I think about the experts that retailers have, whether it's dietitians, obviously pharmacists. And I think about, you know, these areas, as you well know, we have our Women's Wellness symposium called The Next Revolution on June 25th, a little push to everybody, June 25th, and you know, part of that, yes, it's about women's wellness, and lots of things that still need to be done in that space. But talking to some of the OB-GYNs and Dr. Somi Javaid, who I think you've met with us, you know, that conversation about, you know, better understanding of whole body, whole mind, women and men, thinking about that as a health and wellness opportunity. And a very positive thing for a healthier lifestyle, is, you know, something we will talk about in June, but also just that evolution of the conversation that seems to me to be more and more important today. I mean, we hear people like Scott Galloway talk about all the issues of, you know, single men and the issues around young men, not single men, young men, but all of the above, and around the world, and how do we- these are social issues that we need to address that sort of fit into wellness, and to your point, beauty, and that whole health proposition. So I just, I feel like this is such a topic of both commercial opportunity, but social opportunity and need that is increasingly important to all of us anywhere in the world. Are there groups, when you think, you know, everybody's talking about, you know, on the one hand, Gen Z or Gen Alpha, and then on the other we're talking about, which we will on June 25 everybody, longevity, and what that all means. You know, so, when you think about populations here, I'm assuming it's a very broad audience, right?

Rachel Marler 24:52

It is. It's so fascinating because everyone assumes that in our category we're all very focused on the younger generation. Of course, Gen Z, Gen Y are really important to us, but you know what, our growing population is? The boomers. The boomers are having fun. They are. Yes, I mean, if you think about it, they, they're the kids of the 60s. Yeah,

Wendy Liebmann 25:16

Yep. Hello. Yes, I know. I'm one of those.

Rachel Marler 25:19

Yeah, Wendy knows, right? And you know it's funny too, probably not funny for people at the time when they're going through divorce, but divorcees are really having a lot more fun, time, exploration. You know, they get a chance to what, what do I really want to do? I'm older now and I can be more vocal about, yeah, about my life, my health, my sexual interests in making sure that I'm getting pleasure too, as well as your partner.

Wendy Liebmann 25:49

Yeah, no, I was gonna say it's interesting you say it, because I live in, for those of you who do or don't know, in Greenwich Village, in New York, and there have historically been sex shops, as in sexual pleasure toys, etc. etc. And they used to be when we first moved down here pretty gritty, and you're like, oh, now you walk by or in, and you know these are really good-looking stores, very, you know, very smart, very contemporary, great service, you know, knowledgeable people, and you just, you just think about all of that in the context of opportunity for our other retailers in the space. I think that's, that's all fascinating to me, to just see the 20 or so years I've lived down here, see that evolution.

Rachel Marler 26:35

No, it's like evolved so much, and I'm sure what you see in there, it's, it's people of all different backgrounds and age. And I love what you said about community, you know, because, obviously, we both have been working for a long time, and you want to give back too, like it's not about corporate. And in what you were saying about Scott Galloway and young men, I do feel like it's an honor and a privilege to be able to take this to the next level and help people with mental health and getting people back in real life and having, even if it's not a sexual relationship, having a real personal relationship, and intimate, like people just need more intimacy.

Wendy Liebmann 27:18

Yeah, think about the arc of the last five, six years, and then we, if we had enough issues before Covid, and then we're locked in for, and the kids, particularly, but everybody, older people, everybody locked in, and then social, you know, buried in social media, and things like that, and, and so there are sort of broader issues here at play, and I do really think that this is just a piece of that total puzzle of health, wellness, physical, social, sexual, all of that. It's wonderful when we see companies who take the lead in that because of their platform, but also I think just, you know, socially there's so much more opportunity to do that. So, as we wrap this up, what do you see as the opportunities and challenges for this business and your business over the next couple of years?

Rachel Marler 28:07

Yeah, so I see the opportunity is really having that linkage to intimate wellness and health, and really mental health, you know, we have this epidemic of loneliness out there, no matter what age people are, and we need to break that barrier. So, I think that's a big opportunity and a challenge at the same point. The other, oh, there's so much. Just education is is a big part of the opportunities, and then stress reduction, you know, we talked about this, right, NACDS, and then I had to fly off to another big growth forum, and we're just all running around so quickly, so how do we reduce stress? How do we get better? How do we meet our physical and our health goals? And I think sexual wellness can help with all that. The challenges, though, are how do we break through this stigma? How do we continue to have these conversations? And like, I love that woman, Melanie from the "We Do Not Care" Club, she is a shining star, a global phenomenon, right? Now, we're all talking about menopause, perimenopause, and you can have a sense of humor about it.

Wendy Liebmann 29:34

I laugh about, you know, in terms of the purple pill and things, and two people in a bathtub, and like, what the heck are they doing in the bathtub? It's like, okay, okay, I guess we're somewhere. At least we're talking about it, but it's very strange imagery, which clearly, clearly I have not gotten over. I do feel there's progress being made, but I feel like, as you've said so clearly, it is often done in other places and other countries. And worth, as we do in our, as you know, retail innovation and retail immersion work, to look beyond the traditional, you know, the guys, the next, the next store, and the next style, and really think about all of that, so hopefully you continue to have more conversations with people on planes and trains and things like that. Let's do it. Let's have more of that. On June 25th we'll have more of that. So everybody come along with Rachel and start the revolution or stand at the barricades with the rest of us.

Rachel Marler 30:33

And wouldn't it be great to have a retailer really lean into with all these stores of the future, all these retailers doing these, why don't we do a health and wellness makeover area of the store, and you could integrate gracefully the sexual wellness items, as well as everything else.

Wendy Liebmann 30:53

This is this is on us to bring this, bring all of this to the forefront. Open education, make people feel better physically, mentally, sexually. And loneliness, you're absolutely right. We just finished our latest How America Shops® study on wellness, that we called the breakdown, and one of the things we see, beyond stress and sleep, and all those sort of typical top few conditions that people are really concerned about, or studying or trying to do better at, is loneliness. So there you go, you've tapped that one. So now my last question, always, is on any subject, in any category, favorite place to shop these days.

Rachel Marler 31:39

Well, so you know you're asking a shopaholic,

Wendy Liebmann 31:40

I know, which is why I'm asking you!

Rachel Marler 31:43

So of course you know I'm gonna say Walmart, I do love especially a renovated new modeled Walmart. I worked across all the categories and I loved seeing the merchant stories, the integration, all the new products, Target is also a favorite place to run in and see what's going on, and then frankly, independent grocery stores. I loved the what different ethnic food items are out there. What I.. what haven't I explored? And then personally, aside from what we do in our everyday life, I'm always up for a good vintage store, vintage clothing, vintage books, I was walking all around the city yesterday, dragging my husband in to different bookstores, vintage shop, and it's just... I don't know, it's... I love it, because you, you know, one of my favorite things I purchased, I got a Van Halen concert shirt from years ago, and just those little sparks that fun and interesting.

Wendy Liebmann 32:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, we know about you and first edition books. Yes, so anybody sees a first edition something fabulous, please let Rachel know, or let me know, and I'll let Rachel know, because she'll be off there in a minute. So, anyway, I just always, it's always interesting beyond the business and the pleasure. It's so revealing in many ways to figure out what people are all about. So, thank you for sharing that shopping and really your passion for this category business and the opportunities on a broader scale, not just the pure commercial opportunities. It's so it's impressive, but it's also really important, so hopefully some of the troops we want to influence will listen today, and you will be your very own influencer on all of these things, Rachel Marler. So, thank you for joining me. Always a pleasure, and no doubt I will see you very soon, somewhere.

Rachel Marler 33:36

Very soon. Thank you, Wendy Liebmann, and I always love our conversations.

Wendy Liebmann 33:41

Yeah, me too. Cheers for now.

Rachel Marler 33:43

Cheers.

Wendy Liebmann 33:45

You know, there was so much packed into that brief discussion with Rachel, not only the social and mental and physical and sexual opportunity for growth, but also need for commercial opportunity in this area of sexual health and wellness, the whole conversation around intimacy and loneliness. There's so much here that's way beyond the physical nature of a condom or a, or a lubricant. So much more opportunity here, so important as we think about new levels of distribution, new stories to tell, new experts to include in the conversation. This is a topic that that will be connected to much of what we're doing on June 25th when we do our Women's Wellness symposium called The Next Revolution. So, thank you for joining me, as always. Don't forget, sign up for June 25th, we'd love to have you at that. Just go to our website, www.wslstrategicretail.com. You'll see a link in there that you can sign up to attend on June 25th, and also don't forget subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time. Cheers for now.