WENDY LIEBMANN (00:00)

Hello everyone, I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and Chief Shopper at WSL Strategic Retail, and this is Future Shop. This is where I talk to innovators, disruptors, and iconoclasts about the future of retail. Today my guest is Fiona Sartoretto Verna, and if I didn't mangle that, she'll tell you, she'll pronounce it correctly. She leads a, I think, second or third generation of design companies based in Italy, but designing retail, particularly healthcare retail around the world. So welcome Fiona.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (00:35)

Thank you very much, Wendy. Your pronunciation is the best until now from an American. ⁓ Thank you. Thank you to ask me and to guest me. And I'm very happy to have a talk with you about the healthcare design today and what's going on.

WENDY LIEBMANN (00:40)

perfect. Very good, very good. Well, I appreciate that.

WENDY LIEBMANN (00:57)

Before we get started in our conversation with Fiona, just want to remind you, don't forget, please subscribe to this podcast. Let us know you're there helps us with our KPIs. Just go to anywhere you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, our website, anywhere else. Just click to subscribe. Show us that you're in the background. We appreciate that. Now let's get on with the interview.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (01:21)

So, as you say, I'm a third generation.

WENDY LIEBMANN (01:21)

Very good.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (01:24)

and I hope my daughter will be the fourth of a family dedicated to healthcare design specific in the pharmacy design.

WENDY LIEBMANN (01:35)

Well, and we first met, one of our colleagues first met you in the US at the National Community Pharmacists Association, NCPA. And we were absolutely intrigued with the work you do and your unique approach because especially today in the US, as you know well, lots of issues around not only healthcare and how to create a compelling experience, but the cost of healthcare. And so, this conversation around how we create unique and intimate and relevant experiences seems so critical as we look at the growth and change in retail and especially healthcare retail in the US. So, tell us a bit about your background, the company, and the philosophy of the company.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (02:21)

Sure. Yes, my company started in 1965 with my grandfather and my father. My grandfather was born in the US, so he was an immigrant from Italy to Wyoming. And he worked also for McKesson for a part. So, there is a long story also together with the American territories. The company started and from the beginning my parents and my grandfather, considered not pharmacy like a dispensary, but a temple of care. So, this was always the philosophy of my company. And for years, for all these years, we work together with the pharmacist, first only in Italy, in the Italian territory, and then all over the world. Right now, we are in 48 countries. As you say, we work also in the US now it's about 20 years that we work in the US territory. So, we know the market very well. Right now, there is me and my brother. My brother is the CEO of the company and more concentrated in the Italian market and I'm the traveler.

WENDY LIEBMANN (03:41)

I love that philosophy of a “temple of care”. One of the things that we find in our work with retail clients and especially retail clients in the healthcare space is that, as you are well-known as your grandfather would know, Wyoming, that's another story over a cocktail. But that notion of the drugstore on the corner in the US, has become something that there's a lot of discussion about the relevance and that idea of creating this temple of care seems like a very modern idea even though it was first considered with your grandfather in 1965. So how does that difference in the US come to play in other markets around the world, that role of culture? in when you think about the design work you do.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (04:33)

First of all, the American market has been always in the past the example for all over the world. Also, when we talk about drug store or we talk about healthcare or pharmacy. So, before the model was the model of the pharmacy chain. So, these huge, big box with these high and many several gondolas where you can find everything. Now let's say that after COVID everything's changed. You see also what's going on in US in terms of drugstore and pharmacy chain. They continue to propose now a model that for my opinion is obsolete. But I don't think it's only my opinion because the results are the one that is under the eye of everything. So, what happened? It happened that after the COVID, of course, the people became a little bit lazy. So, a lot of people go online and the one that move to go in a shop, in a store, in a pharmacy, they consider like a destination. And they want to find an experience, something else, something that right now they are not found in the drugstore like they are designed right now. So, what I can say is that design is not anymore shelves and color and materials but is a strategy. For the today market, the strategy of the brand for drugstore, I still have not seen for the American market. I see in the Middle East, I see of course in Italy, but in the US, we are still behind.

WENDY LIEBMANN (06:19)

Interesting about that is we've seen, to your point, I don't know if I'd use the term lazy, but I think that in the context of that, our expectation of what a temple of care is or a healthcare environment, now we can get our prescription still at the Walmart, at the grocery store, at the Costco, the warehouse club, of course, online. So everywhere. So, like many other categories, that point of differentiation has been reduced a lot. And I think about how we see the role of the pharmacy, the pharmacist, the healthcare, the broader healthcare coming to play now. So, as you say, it feels like we're at a new moment in time when patients or shoppers, as we would consider them,

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (06:52)

everywhere.

WENDY LIEBMANN (07:19)

are looking for a reason to come to this physical space, as you said. Do you see, you talked about the Middle East, you talked about Italy. I've seen some amazing photographs on your website, and we will add a link here of some of the experiences that you've created. Can you talk a little bit about how you are thinking about that and how maybe in the Middle East versus Europe, you think differently about the approach to creating this temple of wellness.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (07:53)

Sure. First of all, we always take the distance from the pharmacy commercial or the drug store that do the war of price. For us, a pharmacy is a health store, but it's also a health hub. So, for us, selling the product, selling medicine, be a dispensary is not enough in the today market. So, it's very important to connect the service with the product and use the cross-selling for do this. So also teach your team to do in the right way because a health hub it's not easy. It takes a lot of study for the pharmacist to go out the counters, go in front and use his advice and create his own authority. We need to create for US and then I will talk about Middle East and what's going on in Europe. In the there is a big differentiation between independent, that right now is the category which I work more in this moment in US, and the pharmacy chain. They totally two different worlds. So, if we talk about the independent, I require them to do a big effort. First of all, to put in a moment the PBM problem aside. Trust me, there are other ways to make money and to be profitable in today's pharmacy that is also outside the prescription area. But this, like everything, the transformation needs effort and study to do this jump in the future. So, when we talk about drugstore and chain,

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (09:47)

As I told you, I see right now that they need to create a complete change on the system because the war of price is not any more rewarding the pharmacy chain and nobody. So, the first step is to grow the authority. How you grow your authority as a pharmacist owner or pharmacy chain is to create a bigger connection with your community. In this, the independent are fantastic because they already are the heart of the community. When I talk about temple of care, I think about them because in Italy, for example, most of the pharmacy were all independent until some years, a few years ago where the chain were allowed to come and make business.

In the Middle East, on the contrary, most are pharmacy chain, huge group, private, with some owner or company. if we talk about Saudi Arabia, they are 1,000 of location. I just came back from Saudi Arabia and the healthcare is booming. Really, are dozens of huge hospitals in construction, some are ready, and so I'm working a lot with the hospital pharmacy. And there are a lot of clinics. So, they understood that the pharmacy chain can have the service in the upper floor or next to try to involve also locating mall to try to involve the population and push them to do also prevention.

WENDY LIEBMANN (11:34)

that's very interesting because sometimes as we step back here we think well there are 8,000 stores in one chain versus the individual independent in the local community and now we're just beginning again to hear some of the larger retailers talk about the importance of being part of their community again and engaging the community as they did in many ways during COVID and became that healthcare resource that was local, that was easy to access, where they trusted the pharmacists. So, it's interesting to understand the evolution of the model in other countries where I think often in the US, we think other countries it's all about independent pharmacies. Where I grew up in Australia, it was independents and then chains, small chains, bigger chains came to bear. So that dynamic is very interesting. When you talk about community and being part of the community and you think about how then you design, I mean, I can envision now, I've seen photos of some of the design work you've done and I've seen how you lay out beauty, how you lay out service, obviously the pharmacy itself. That experience is, really does feel like a temple and very inviting. So how is that different when you design in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia versus how you might design in the US or in Italy?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (13:08)

Yeah, there is a Latin word that is genus loci, means the genius of the place, of the location. So absolutely every project we design is different because the community and the location is different. So not the physical architectural location. But also, the people that will come inside the pharmacy and will spend the money and they need to feel good inside the location. So absolutely, if I work in Saudi Arabia where there are different traditions, not different also aspect in the culture, I try always to immerse myself with respect every place I go. And this is part of our company to be open to all the community and to understand the needs. And this is what every owner of pharmacy needs to do, understand really the needs of the community. Because if we understand the needs, we understand also what we can do for help the community. And if we help them, they will come back to us and be loyal. And so, when I design a pharmacy in different parts of the world, the first things we do is a deep analysis of the location. Not only the people, so sometimes I go there, I stay some hours just looking how they move inside the existing pharmacy. Maybe they go directly to the counter, maybe they like some area. I remember one time I designed a pharmacy in New Jersey and the owner said that what the community liked was an iron bridge. That maybe for me was without any meaning but for the community itself, have a history, have some part. And I like this because the storytelling creates a bridge between the pharmacy and the community. And this is like to say, “trust me”, I'm part of the community, I'm part of you. So...

WENDY LIEBMANN (15:23)

Interesting. So, when you say an iron bridge, do you mean like an iron bridge that people drive? Wow, that is it. That is an interesting, you know, it's what you reminded me of when you were describing this, there was a moment about before COVID. So, I'm going to say five or six or seven years ago, when one of the drug chains in the US, particularly, Duane Reed, which was very much a New York drug chain, as you know, and very

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (15:27)

Yes!

WENDY LIEBMANN (15:49)

specific to its community. It was started on Duane and Reed Street in Lower Manhattan. But as they expanded and then were bought by the Walgreens company, what they began to do in creating flagships in each major city was make those stores very specific to the community with imagery of the local community, with signing. Those examples went away because of, I think, the cost efficiency, I assume. And now we see little things like, you know, welcome or hello, whatever the name of the town or the villages or something. But that intimacy that you're talking about has mostly disappeared. And from what you're saying is that's a mistake today in terms of building this culture of trust, this caring place.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (16:39)

Yes, absolutely. If our goal is not only to sell a product, but to create a loyalty to your patient customer in the way that they come back not only one time and then they go to buy the same online, but this is also what you need to create. Now, for example, we are realizing in reconstruction some pharmacy independent in the Bronx. In some areas that are not luxurious, but the will of the owner to create something for the community. So, all the storytelling, all the communication inside the pharmacy is to create this, to merge.

What are the faces of the people over there and the faces of the pharmacists, for example? Like a family. When we talk about pharmacy, people consider the pharmacy in Italy like this. Pharmacies in the villages, everybody knows by name.

Maybe also the drugstore, need to go like they are doing. In the they are taking a location smaller right now. Maybe to try to concentrate more in this relationship that in the years has been lost. So many times, when I go inside a drugstore in the US, nobody helps me. So, I don't know how to try a product. I cannot. So there is only the cashier

WENDY LIEBMANN (18:09)

interesting because I know you and your brother have both written books about the training and the education and you've taken this notion of designing this experience and not only thought about it from an architectural standpoint, but you begin with the community, the sort of human aspect and the layout, but you're also talking, I think, about education. Is that right?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (18:33)

Yes, exactly. First of all, after COVID, the education was necessary. The people, when they go inside the pharmacy, right now, they are looking for something different. We really see a switch in every country. There is a generalized...a willing of wellness that became the magic word. And now what the last project we are designing, we are going towards the longevity. So, these two words, wellness and longevity are the one on which we build the future of the design of the healthcare. If we talk about the architectural point of view and the design, always more attention to natural materials, to not use material that cannot be recyclable. So, we try really to, between the choices, to choose always to emerge the patient to a sense of peace. And this sense of peace more and more is the natural, the naturality of a tree, a stabilized tree.

a wall of moss can give you because there is nothing better, no? For us, when you are stressed to go in a garden or to make a walk, it's the same. How we can transform the pharmacy in a stress-free retail through a good design. I know that for pharmacy chain is a problem because you need to invest to create something like this.

WENDY LIEBMANN (20:15)

Right. Right. It's interesting. We have seen examples now. Rite Aid also experimented with some unique pharmacy experiences and store experiences, exactly what you said. Lots of light, a greenery. And it was exactly that. You walked into the store, and you could, I keep saying to myself here is we have a new generation of people who are much more engaged in either taking stress out of their lives. We see it in all our research data, our How America Shops® data, where we see that younger people particularly are even more stressed than anybody else and their mental health is of concern to them in this country. We see them looking for ways to take care of themselves and their families and perhaps all the members of their family. So that tension between how I do that in 8,000 stores, 1,000 stores, 500 stores or two stores seems to be a really important opportunity for us moving forward. And I wonder how you think about that when you're in the Middle East where you're designing potentially for a thousand stores versus in the Bronx where you're one specific store.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (21:33)

When we design a huge store, we design not per square meters, for experience. The experience is not only visual. When you want to sell a product, now the experience has to count on the five cents the patient has. So not only the visual, but also the audio. For example, now there are some systems that you can attach to the window and can attract with the music or message from outside the store to inside. Consider Christmas time and the beautiful Christmas music attract you to go inside your drug store. Okay. Or some particular music that can attract towards some section of the drugstore. Then there is the smell. So how would be beautiful to follow the season, no? And so, when there are the, I don't know, the orange tree in bloom to have this smell in some section and of course to touch. So, you know, people are more and more want... to experience, really to have what everybody talks about, this patient experience. But what is this? Of course, all of us don't want to stay online. All of us want help if I need it, want to see the things clearly, so a good communication inside. And something that attracts

towards all the sections. What I notice is that we are very behind in category. We have a population that has become older and healthy, and this is why longevity. So now in November we are creating here a huge event that will be open also in English language. And we have some doctor that work with astronauts and so can explain us what the services are we can introduce in the pharmacy for longevity for our patient. So, the pharmacy cannot be the same, So you need to study the category for them, for their issue of health, and create a section for them. The other side, we have the younger people, the other generation.

WENDY LIEBMANN (23:58)

Yeah.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (24:02)

There is a category study for each generation. So, it's very important to understand that your drugstore, which generation want to focalize the sale because you cannot say, I want to sell to everyone. It's not possible.

WENDY LIEBMANN (24:13)

Yeah, we always say in our business, you know, is the shopper in the center? Are we thinking about who it is that human that needs us as a retailer or a brand? And I think the way you center your philosophy is so important. The other thing that you just said, which struck me is, you know, we tend not to think about all the senses. And I was just on one of our Retail Safaris® that we do, our Retail Immersion with a group in Miami. And so many things struck us. It wasn't just the fragrance that you, scent as you walked into some of these retailers, but also the color, the color of the displays and the magic of walking into a, you know, either bright or soft color palace rather than a utilitarian, you know, everything is white or beige or whatever was so compelling, so emotionally resonant. And when you think of what is the color of wellness, what is the color of a good long life? What is that fragrance? What is the touch and feel? It really does talk to us beyond the utilitarian of the products all lined up on the shelf, the cash registers, the computers, all of that. Very, very powerful. When you think about your design today, where does technology fit?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (25:39)

Technology is everywhere. Consider what we are doing in those days here in our headquarters at the upper floor. We create aspects for the artificial intelligence. So, our clients will be able to really step in with the Apple vision or Oculus. We already do, and so first of all, in our work, we are already from the beginning using all the tools, so it's something that we care a lot to be always on top of the technology. We have been from the beginning. We are always aware of the new technology, device or tools for the pharmacy. the pharmacy has all kind of robot that can help to count the medicine, to distribute the medicine. Let's think about hospital pharmacy where they have a turnover of 1000 of medicine box to the patient. And with this robot, they can really limit reduce the waiting time from one hour to 15 minutes. It's something that when we do a checklist in the beginning, we always ask if technology is part of the investment we want to do in the pharmacy.

WENDY LIEBMANN (27:04)

you also think about it from the patient, the customer standpoint, connecting to what they might bring on their phone or how they use those tools? So, beyond the pharmacy, when you think about designing an experience, they sometimes bring so much information with them.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (27:13)

Yes, yes.

WENDY LIEBMANN (27:23)

or knowledge or connection. So, do you think about, is that part of the design process as well?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (27:28)

The devices are progressing, so who knows in two years what we will have. Maybe connect with our brain or maybe not. But if we talk right now in the present, there is a lot of talk in the US about the desert of the pharmacy, because a lot of independent are closing, chain is closing.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (27:51)

There are entire rural that are not served anymore. So, if a pharmacy in this territory can be connected with the closest hospital or with the best, maybe in a big city or in a small village, physician, this pharmacy became more than a pharmacy, it a center point of healthcare for that community.

WENDY LIEBMANN (28:17)

Yeah.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (28:18)

So, it's very important also to think, to introduce this technology to help out and to limit the distance when territory is so huge.

WENDY LIEBMANN (28:30)

It's incredibly exciting when we think about beyond the, I'm going to call it the efficiency of what a lot of retail, not just drug stores, we don't want to just beat the drug stores, but in this country, this efficiency of here's a model, here's the real estate on the right corner of the street. years, we want them to all look the same. And so much was repetitive. It was more of a what I would call a real estate play, rather than a community and human play. And now with all the ways people can access healthcare products, etc. What your approach feels like it's not only is it very modern, but very relevant within this time where we have to step back and say, how can we create these very human experiences and think about building it within the context of individual communities, in person, as well as using the technology. I think when we first started to talk, I was really excited about this. And then I saw some of the examples of the things you have, things, the spaces, the places that you've designed. And it made me think there is opportunity here. if we can balance out the economics from 8,000, 5,000, 3,000 and think about it in the context of individual communities. So, so much more to talk about.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (29:50)

Also, because When I talk about a temple, it's really a temple. The problem is that the pharmacy thinks that this temple, the beam and everything is sustained only by the medicine, the prescription. But now it's not anymore like this. The revenue doesn't sustain by the medicine for the PBM, for the online, for the competition. So, you need to do several actions and maybe the different...

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (30:20)

between my company and the others is that when we are on the table and start to talk about a new pharmacy, we talk about, we talk also with the procurement officer. We don't talk only about, I want to do a beautiful, fantastic, and then, you know, so we need to understand the investment realistic that you need to

WENDY LIEBMANN (30:32)

Yeah. Just to wrap up, is that good retail, physical retail, of any category, whether it's health, whether it's beauty, fashion, toys, children, whatever, really has that identity that resonates. Whether you can walk down the mall and you can smell the fragrance of the chocolate chip cookies. Or you can, you see the logo, but it's more than the logo. It reminds you of the overall brand experience and then everything is reflected. So, I do think that best retail is all, begins where you've talked about it today. And I think from a design standpoint, especially as we think about the U.S. to look at other examples around the world of how even the bigger retailers are thinking about how they deliver that kind of experience, particularly in a in an age that is very, very digital. So, I can't thank you enough for doing this. I know you are ready for cocktails maybe in Rome. Not but soon.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (31:45)

I was asking Where are my chocolate cookies in the pharmacy in America

WENDY LIEBMANN (31:50)

You are, right? Can we have something, some healthy smelling of chocolate? Chocolate's good for us, isn't it? And red wine and other things. Anyway, listen, it was wonderful to have you, Fiona. I'm so glad we got the chance to talk about this. I know we have more discussion, and we will share with people some of the examples because these are amazing spaces that you are creating in the US and in other

Fiona Sartoretto Verna (31:58)

Yes.

WENDY LIEBMANN (32:14)

You know, the thing that was really clear and the passion that Fiona and her team, family, generations of family have is one, they don't come to this experience as pharmacists or traditional retailers creating these spaces. They come as architects in some ways as anthropologists who are very focused on building community-based experiences, whether it's for independent drugstore retailers anywhere in the world, or as you heard her talk about, bigger chains in places like Saudi Arabia. Just because we have so many stores and we think about operational efficiency, we no longer have the luxury to forget about the power of the human, the power of the individual, and the importance of community to build that relationship if we want to grow our healthcare business continually in the United States. Sounds like a vision of the future for me. See you there. Cheers for now.