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I'm Wendy Liebmann, CEO and Chief Shopper at WSL Strategic Retail. And this is Future Shop. This is where I talk to innovators, disruptors and iconoclasts about the future of retail. Today, my guest is a dear friend and longtime colleague, Norm de Greve. He is the global CMO of General Motors, the car company. When we first met, he was CMO at CVS Health, that drugstore on the corner, and before that, he was the president of Digitas, the digital marketing agency. So he has a very interesting and broad perspective on the world of retail and many other things. Welcome Norm.

Norm 00:57

Thank you, Wendy, it's great to be here. It's always lovely to see you

Wendy 01:00

And you too. I see that you are not in Detroit, that in your home office, I recognize that amazing picture behind you. Move a little so everybody can see how fabulous that comes. Yes, I assume it's an electric car.

Norm 01:14

It's an electric car, and I'm happy to sell out to anybody who would want one. So please let me know,

Wendy 01:19

You've been what at GM now a year, little over a year and a half, yeah, and I wanted, from the moment you went into that space, to really talk to you a little bit about your perspective from both sides of that fence, the more traditional retail fence, to the to the automotive. it just seemed to me, in many ways, both industries undergoing lots of transformation. I mean, to go from the local drugstore on the corner to a vertically integrated healthcare concept, Proposition, healthcare proposition, and looking at the automotive industry, at least from my naive consumer perspective, in terms of all the things that are going on there in terms of electrification and driverless cars and things like that. So topic at hand, transforming industries. How different was it to move from my neighborhood pharmacy, health care provider into this automotive space.

Norm 02:26

Well, let me, let me start with the similarities that you talked about, because CVS has been for a long time, going through a giant transformation, as you described, and from the pharmacy business to the PBM business, to the insurance business, to the health services business, and really knew and knows where it wants to go. Yet the path to get there is a hard path to get there, because you've got this existing business that's producing a certain amount of profit, and you want to get into this new business that you can see is the future, but maybe not as profitable, but you got to get there. And that is exactly what CVS is wrestling with them. The healthcare side, they know where they want to go. It's just got, they got to get there. And that's not the easiest thing. And that is exactly similar to what is happening on the automotive side, as you noted, with going to EVs. Because EVs, of course, are the future, and we can talk about that, but they but they really are one way or another. The fact is, they're just better cars to drive. So like we can, you can talk about all lots of stuff, but once you drive, when you realize it's a better car, but they make less money right now than the traditional products. And so it's the same sort of thing. How do you get to this future while managing your profitability to get there? There? It's like a, it's like a, an archetype in business now, on the differences, you know, cars are passion products and fashion products, and so the images that you put in people's head about those products is super, super important. I'd say CVS and health. Yes, it has a large convenience element to it, but that's the but then when you get to the marketing, it is also passion, but it's passion with helping people, and it's kind of an emotional passion or helping yourself feel better. And there's like a there's like a tight emotion in it, but they are kind of different, like one is about what the external world thinks of me, and one is about what I think of myself and how I take care of myself. And so those aspects are a little bit different, and that means the marketing slightly different. Yeah, in what you focus on, they do

Wendy 04:25

I do have a great emotional connection, I think I told you this story to General Motors cars. I mean, we grew up in the bush. My father traveled a lot every week, and he we were a Holden General Motors, Holden family. I mean, when my father was really ill at the end of his life, fortunately, a long life, one of his good friends who continued to visit him was the owner of the General Motors dealership in our country town, who came to see him in Sydney all the time. So I think about very emotional connection to a car. A car company, which is really interesting, as opposed to, or isn't this a fabulous color, shape, drive, whatever. So I do want some interesting

Norm 05:09

interesting thing that you say there, because I think what you've just said is something that is true for so many people. They remember cars play a role in your life. You remember it, whereas sometimes with other products, they come and go and you don't remember, you know, you don't remember, Oh, that was the time I used that product. Maybe you do, but most likely you don't. And cars, people have stories about the cars that they grew up in. I bet you, every single person can name the car that they drove the day after they got their driver's license, right, right? Yeah,

Wendy 05:37

yeah. So as you think about that and building that connection, first of all, transforming industries, I think about a lot of the industries that we deal with in our, you know, consulting practice going under massive transformation, whether it's retailers of any kind, whether it's CPG healthcare companies that are spinning off OTCs from pharmacy, you know, food companies trying to be healthier, sustainable, etc. So as you look at that, you have a tremendous knowledge in terms of thinking about that arc of transformation, and how do you keep the shopper with you on that journey, as well as the, you know, the stock market, the shareholders on that journey when you're in big, publicly owned companies. How do you how do you think about that as a CMO,

Norm 06:30

the first point, which is maybe the obvious point, is that it's not easy. If it was easy, people would say, oh, that's no problem. Just do one of those transformation things, yeah. And, and it's just really not easy, because you have to invest in both at the same time, and it takes years. It takes years. So it's not like, Oh, I did it this year, next year, things will be great. But the most important thing, which is true in both automotive and in CPG and in retail, actually, is that the experience really matters. The experience really matters. And I think, as a senior leader, the the easy answer in the short term is to do things that hurt the experience, because it drops money right to the bottom line, and it puts you in a terrible position afterwards, because now those costs are all out, and how do you put the cost back in the product or the or the cert, or the experience in the store, or whatever, to have this elevated offering that you're trying to transform into? And so I think, as a leader, your job is actually to protect the experience and to improve the experience so that it doesn't become a victim of trying to drive the near term profitability. And I'm not saying that's easy. I'm just saying that if you go that way, it's very hard to get out of it's interesting.

Wendy 07:55

You say that because I was thinking the other day it's no longer about what we sell, but rather how we sell it, as we think about, you know, the access to goods and services, you know, very accessible at any price point, etc. How do I maintain the quality of that engagement, that connection with the core customer, shopper, driver, while we're going through all this?, from a marketing standpoint, how do you how do you think about that engaging internally and externally, while all this transition is going on?

Norm 08:32

I think the truth of a marketing standpoint is that it really does require the CEO to share, have the share same shared vision of the importance in these elements, because the luxury of not being the CEO is that you're not on the hot seat for numbers going down. And so they have to deal with that. But then they also have to say, where do they think the greatest leverage points are. And so I think, as a marketer, your job is to help inform and cajole in a practical, real way, where you have empathy for the person's position and the results that they have to deliver, but do it together to get to the to the right answer, and that where you see it really generally working the best is either with an experienced CEO who's seen the problems that happen if you don't do that, who knows that issue, or maybe, maybe, like, it's a more a smaller company, where the you know, you can get a younger person in there and doing

12:41

Take a CPG, take a retailer. Take an auto manufacturer. Everybody knows how they could cut costs in the product or service today. I could delay my capital investment in X. I could share more parts. I could not update a formula. I could I could use old packaging. I mean, these have these. I. They're all around and you will get away with it for a few months, six months or so, and then people start to notice. And as they say, with reputation, you take the stairs up, but the elevator down, yeah. And then, and then, it's really hard. It's really, really hard. We we've just finished some new research our How America Shops® research, and we really focused in on this concept of trust, and very much this notion around why Americans so angry, you know, talk about the election or not, but this sense of pessimism, frustration, increased prices, lack of quality.

Norm 10:39

mean, I just have to say it's a little surprising that people are surprised by the anger. Yeah, let's just, let's just kind of take a look at what's been going on in America. There's been kind of a split in incomes. No, everybody knew that. That's not like a new idea, but it was happening. So what we all knew is a small portion of people were getting a little wealthier. Most people weren't, uh, either staying stagnant or going down. Okay, then we also know that as it got harder during COVID and other times to make your EBIT by selling more, people raise their prices. And so this was not like a completely foreign idea, that, hey, when people have less money and we raise prices, at some point, they're going to say, that's not cool. And that's kind of what happened, right? So

Wendy 11:26

I think about the role of marketing and all of that, as well as the role of, you know, innovation and value and all of those words we toss around a lot, but yeah, so I think about the role of marketing and all of that, as well as the role of, you know, innovation and value and all of those words we toss around a lot, but a lot.

Norm 11:36

Did you maybe, I think you might have had the insight on trust. You may have shared this with me a little while ago that I think people were, they're kind of going back to the there's like the nostalgia piece, where they're kind of going back to things that they know and trust, because things are so chaotic and uncertain that they that they want to rely on the tried and true.

Wendy 11:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that that is something that we can continue to see and all of that. So, you know, the challenges of being a being a global marketer with multiple brands, that's the other question I had for you. You know, I think about the portfolio you have brands, how do you manage that portfolio without saying, Well, these guys are great, and these guys are almost as great or not. I know you'd never say that. I know you'd never, we never, we would never we would never say…

Norm 12:23

we love all our children

Wendy 12:25

I know, well done.

Norm 12:26

Well, I think there are very different needs and desires for different vehicles and the you know, everybody you know, you can think about the functional needs we you know, you know, I want a three row of seats you know what those are, right? So okay, but there are also identity desires. How do I want the world to see me? Some people say I don't care. Fine. That's actually a statement. Some people say I want to seem rugged, that's a statement. Some people say I want to seem sporty, that's a statement. And so when you get into expensive products, the more that you can deliver on both the need and the image, the more in demand you are. And so then, then when you look at our product portfolio, so we have over 40 different products, which is a fair amount for a car manufacturer, and different brand names and all kinds of stuff and different brands around the world. But the key is, how do you cover the market in a way that is really relevant to those segments, and not just changing the name on the outside? Because the name alone isn't sufficient. We all know that. That's what happened in the automotive industry. You know, maybe 40 years ago, where there was too much sharing, and all the cars looked exactly the same, and then they put a different badge on it that that doesn't work. And that's another example where consumers eventually catch up. They're like, this is not Yeah. Like, this is just nuts. This is silly, yeah. So the key, which is really the key for, for, for every product manufacturer, is to maintain distinctiveness in those products, because lots of companies share input ingredients across their products, and if you are sitting in front of an Excel spreadsheet, look what if we shared more of these things, we'd make even more money. And so the key is really keeping the distinctiveness. And what we have found is that in order to cover the market in a meaningful way, because of need and image, we need more products to do that. And that's like, you know, that's what's made GM, the number one car manufacturer in the US.

Wendy 14:39

Well, the other thing about that, that I find interesting is this notion. And again, having grown up with Holden as a brand, which I don't know exists anymore in Australia, but, but that the cultural differences, I mean, we look around the world, right and so many of the manufacturers that we deal with, certainly large companies that we might deal with. Uh, have a portfolio, and as they look around the world, they take that portfolio, sometimes adapt to local needs. Sometimes take the local need and adapt it across another market. Yes, but I often think that they're, you know, either we've got too much choice that isn't really differentiated, or we've got not enough specific. I'm going to use the word personalized choice for people in different countries.

Norm 15:26

Yeah, there are, it is different, and depending on the country, of course, we have the most in the US. And then you can, you know, go around the world and there's, we have different models outside the US that we don't even sell in the US because they're relevant to that, to that market. But I think you're right. You can end up in a place where you have not sufficient differentiation between the models, and so now you just have too many models, and it's way too expensive, because all that stuff costs. You know, you have to have a different sign and a different building and maybe a different dealer and like so if you don't have enough differentiation, you've just oversaturated your marketplace. And so you do need that. And on the other hand, there are, for sure markets where it's, you know, which car do you want? Because we have one available, right? And so that's, there's opportunity in that to sell more to different people.

Wendy 16:13

So when I think about the consumer in all of this, and how you think about the segments of consumers you talked about, you know, how I see myself, and the role a car plays in my life. Yeah, that proposition versus the obvious, I assume, of, you know, I've got three kids. I need to get them around, you know, all those sorts of things. Are there other, I mean, other levers or layers to how you think I'm trying to think about, is automotive, buying a car persona, different from, you know, buying a lipstick persona? How would I look at well,

Norm 16:47

I think there's some similarities when you think about that persona. So we think about, we the segments we create are based on a combination of a need and a desired image. And we've mapped the market, and we know the size of all the segments, the market share, how we're performing, what we want to be doing in each of those groups. Okay, let's take Lysol, because it's actually not very much different. Okay, Lysol plays in a market of I want, I want it to be disinfected right in here. They also play in a market that maybe I want it to smell fresh. Those are two different markets that you could cover with one product, or you can cover with two products, and it's the same. So my point is, it's actually exactly the same, like it's maybe not about image as much, but it's about a desired atmosphere or feeling of cleanliness or whatever. And that's a market. And so hopefully Lysol map those, all those markets, and they can decide if they have one product to cover those, because the issue that you'll find, I mean, you can imagine, in disinfectant, you're competing with bleach, and in freshness. You're probably, you may be competing with candles. I mean, they're very different sorts of sets, and your ability to deliver on what a consumer really wants is probably fairly different marketing and product packaging.

Wendy 18:01

product packaging. Yeah, you just reminded me of an experience walking through a Walmart with a former Walmart executive who walked me into the pool chemicals aisle and showed me the bleach that sold at a way premium price to going through the washing detergent laundry aisle, where you could buy it at like a third of the price, right? Because that's what the market would bear and the design. The problem was that both bottles looked exactly the same. Friends, you talked about innovation, I think you did not was exactly right, but the life, the length of time for you to innovate a product or launch a product, is way longer than the length of time it would take me to introduce a new version of Lysol, right?

Norm 18:47

It can take two to four years, yeah. And the cost, yeah? I mean, it is, yeah. So yes, there's research, and there's trends, and there's all this stuff, and there's guessing, because at the end of the day, you just don't know what the world's going to be like, right? And it is amazing. And in that business, you know, the car business, it's also artistry, right? So you're creating a moving sculpture that you think people are going to want in two to four years now, you can imagine where you were two or four years ago. I mean, it's really like, I find it really astounding. And when you hit it right, it's like wildfire, right? When you hit it wrong, it's like an anchor, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wendy 19:35

yeah. I was thinking about it in the in the terms of, you know, the capital expenditure around with, right? And I know exactly right, yeah.

Norm 25:27

Is this going to be a popular area or not a popular area? But now I'm in for a five year lease or a 10 year lease, and I it is where I am, so I've got to figure it out.

Wendy 19:56

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And those sorts of things, I also think. About, you know, when it comes to innovation, you know, in the again, I don't want to hone in only on the consumer package goods business. It could be home, it could be fashion, it could be a lot of other areas. But where there are, there's the capital expense of, let's open a company. Let's design a new line of skincare. Let's make it in the kitchen, and then, you know, build it out through direct to consumer and other ways, you know, lower cost ways that doesn't feel like that happens in the automotive industry. Or does it?

Norm 20:33

Well, it does. I mean, we start lines, car lines, or even if you move into electric, it could be the same car line, but It's electric. May cost billions of dollars to tool up a factory to get that where, I mean, it's like a gigantic amount of money and and so then, you know, this is So, this is what happens, right? So just from a marketing standpoint, this, this product comes to market. And if you want to talk about brands, what drives brands in automotive, or what drives brands in most places? It's actually the experience that's mostly what it is. And so if you have a product like an automotive that's a great product, it has the right, you know, electric range that looks styling, and the styling is good, and the quality is right and the performance is good, marketing can accelerate that, but if you have poor underlying attributes in any product or in any experience, the marketing can't sufficiently cover it up and and so, you know, yes, it's a long product cycle, But there's a bigger story in here about where a company, what company, should prioritize their money. And if you go all the way back to what we're talking about with transformation, keep your eye on the product and experience. And maybe sometimes that means you got to reduce the marketing budget to make sure that you are doing that. Now, before people go crazy on that statement, you know, you make a product that nobody knows about, that's not going to work so well either, so you gotta, you still have to have yourself to create demand for it. But the fundamental thing is, if those of those elements aren't strong enough, your marketing will be insufficient. And where does that lead you? It leads you pretty quickly into, Hey, we should put a coupon on this, or an incentive on this, and then what does that do? That says, Hey, you're basically communicating to most people that nobody really wants to buy this thing at this price. So could you buy at a cheaper price? And that, what does that do? It hurts your brand. Yeah, well, you just raised

Wendy 22:33

Yeah. Well, you just raised the point. I now start to think about all those facets of marketing, right? So we're used to, you know, the role of the store, direct to consumer, potentially order online, pick up in store, the impact of social media, all of those things. And now I think about, okay, now I want to buy a car. So what does that journey look like when somebody says, you know, either I need to buy a new car, or I want to buy a new car. What does that money look like?

Norm 23:05

Well, from a marketer standpoint, this is like, just like a wonderful place, because what happens is the, you know, most people aren't thinking about cars until they decide they want to buy one. Then they're like, oh, I don't know what like, which would I buy? And they're like, they start with an initial consideration set. Turns out two thirds of the time they buy off that initial consideration set. So like, getting in that's really important. But this then takes about three to four or five months of shopping. You add more brands, but because they're so expensive and the internet's so easy, 80% of people shop online. So you start exhausting all this digital data about your behaviors and your interest and what you want, and we can do so much with that, to connect with people and to communicate with them, to provide the right information, to work with the review sites to make sure that they have at least the accurate understanding of our products. But like, there's a ton that's happens. And then, by the way, so then, then they decide, okay, now I've been playing around and researching. So then, then they, then they, you kind of have a D to C element, because what do they do? They tend to go to your website, and then they tend to want to sometimes, in fact, in in Cadillac or in Chevrolet, today, you can actually do the whole process online. Buy the whole thing online, and you go to go to a dealer. There's nothing they do that, most people, most people aren't really doing that yet, but they'll go through some parts of the process, then they go to the dealer. The dealers have a piece in this as well, and they're communicating to you through text messages, and that's spewing up data. So like, there's just, like, a real way to engage in a very deep and meaningful way. And I do feel like the differentiation in that engagement can at least help you decide on the dealer that you want, and then can also sway you on the brand you want, because you're getting into a very risky, big purchase in your life. You're scared, you're excited, but you're nervous, and the people who. Who treat you well, give you comfort and confidence that it's all going to work out.

Wendy 25:04

So what's compelling about that, as I think about it, is the role of the store, physical store, where I finally want to actually go and sit in the seat and make sure it's comfortable and make sure I like the look of it in person, right? I'm sure there are other things people want to do. Smell the fresh leather, see, all the tech right? Here, here, hear the sound system. Look at the GPS. Yeah, you got it. All right. Things, right? How far along in the journey is that experience is that way at the end before people?

Norm 25:39

Yeah, it's pretty close to the end, actually, before they, I'd say it's in the last month of this, you know, kind of three to five month journey. So that that's when they and by the time that happens, they're really, they're like, they want to confirm what they believe. Now, what I would say is there are some amazing car dealers that just really create an incredible experience. Doesn't have to be like, No, it's not like, go, like, going to Disney World, but they, but they create, but actually the, but the principles of Disney do get employed, and how to, how to create a great experience, which is exactly the same in particularly higher end retail, where what is the experience? And people are buying partially the product and partially the experience. In fact, if I look at what drives loyalty in automotive, the dealer experience plays a huge role, a huge role, just like a high end store, or actually, really, any store, once you feel like they take care of you, you want to stay with them, yeah? But they, but it's got to feel like they take care of you, not just that they that you are a transaction. Yeah?

Wendy 26:50

Well, that's my father and Darryl Gorkroger that, whose name I remember to this day, right? And hopefully he's still with us somewhere. The other thing that that I've noticed lately, and again, within that retail experience, and we see it a lot, you know, we do a lot of our retail innovation work looking around the world. You know, how our retailers, at large, selling goods and services. And I look at, you know, high a high end mall here, like in in New Jersey, like the Mall at Short Hills, and they're in the middle of the mall now, and there could be a car showroom, there could be some promotional concept featuring a new car of some sort. How much does that play a part now? That feels like it's the last few years that's been going

Norm 27:36

Yeah, that's right, you've seen like, you've seen Tesla go into some malls. You've seen Rivian kind of go with some of that. I do think, first of all, the transformation of malls is pretty astounding, right? Just like we've seen in beauty, people realize that D -o-C doesn't get you enough exposure. First of all, you have to go to where people are, and that. So just think about as a marketing expense, but then also being close to them, they're more likely to buy just be because you're more available. And so I think the D to C players have really figured this out, like Tesla has figured this out, that there's actually value in being in the mall, where people can see the product, touch the product, and that that is pretty interesting. We do that in in Europe, and actually we just opened in Auckland, in New Zealand, with stores that are, but they're very kind of small retail stores in the city where you can see the products, because that's where the people are.

Wendy 28:30

I'm just back from London. We co-hosted and what we call the Future of Commerce 2030 event in London. Wewe were in the in the newest shopping center in London, which is in the old Battersea Power Station, quite a gigantic space. And they were doing more of this beyond just the, you know, again, high end and traditional specialty retailers. Again, they were bringing in, whether it's the, you know, some kind of fitness equipment or automotive or whatever, to create that sort of broader lifestyle experience, yeah,

Norm 29:04

And it creates a bit of, you know, you bring nice cars, and it creates kind of a sense of an aura to it. The other thing I'll say, though, is, what some have done really well, is the amount of friction they take out of the transaction experience. You know, because automotive, there's, like, a lot of stuff. You're getting a loan, like a credit scores. What do you want? Who's good at the title, blah, blah, blah registration. Some have been very good at making that, like, a few click process, which is really cool. And I think that we can all learn from that. Like, how do you inspire people with a product and an experience and make the transaction as frictionless as possible.

Wendy 29:42

and especially when you're talking about something that's anywhere from what 15,000 to $15 billion

Norm 29:50

We got a car for everyone. Yeah, there's a car for us.

Wendy 29:54

No, no, it's good. It's good that that's so important, right? Yeah, that's an interesting proposition, because I, I've been thinking of. Out that as a, you know, all the barriers, or all the not barriers, but maybe nervous points in that, like, oh yes, now I've found something within my price range. I love the color. Now I have to get the financing. You know, all of those moments when you have a chance to say, oh, maybe not today. And so making that totally frictionless is, is a very powerful opportunity. Then you talked about the dealerships building a relationship, and I think, well, how often do people change their cars? I know my dad, who drove 300,000 miles a year, changed his car every year, and actually was in my it was in such good condition that people would wait in line to buy my father's car because he kept it so impeccably.

Norm 30:46

You know, that's just an incredible amount of miles, amazing, right? Probably seven years, for a new car, 12 years overall, including news. So, so it's a long time, yeah. So I think that there are, of course, maintenance episodes in between, you know, quarterly oil change or whatever, but let's say, mostly you're not spending time with your dealer, right? there's a lot of analogy between dealer or pharmacy, and that sounds crazy, but, um, you know, when you're sick, one of the, one of the reason people like their pharmacists is because they feel like they have somebody that can help them, and that can and a worried moment, right? Or just a moment of need of reassurance that's there for them in case something goes wrong. It's the same thing with a car dealer. You don't really need them that often, but it's nice to know that there's somebody here. So first of all, that relationship. Now the second piece, the really best dealers have the right CRM systems that. So when I call, I pop up on the screen, and they know how they've interacted with me, and they know how to they interact with me the moment they answer the phone in a way that is like, like, I was just there two weeks ago or a week ago, yeah. And that creates, like, a wow experience, and it's totally possible to do, right? So there31:56There, there are other things that you I was just thinking, I'm sure my car, our car, needs to be serviced, right? So sticky on that something. But wouldn't that be great if they sent me a text or called and said, You who don't forget it's time or the registrations due or something? It's not General Motors. I apologize I didn't buy the car.

Norm 32:15

Wendy, there's something we got, we got our work.

Wendy 38:52

You know, who to work on in my family on that. It's like whatever I'm happy to drive.

Norm 32:21

If you go to places like South America and Brazil, WhatsApp is massive. I think Brazil has the highest penetration of WhatsApp in the world. But it's massive. And what? What's happening now in the car business, there is, though it's the WhatsApp experience is starting all the way up when you're on social media and and there's interaction and questions, and there's a there's a group formed, and that continues on. And so I think that that's just really interesting, and probably something that's going to end up happening in America, because it's just so convenient. Then you put on top of that, um, what's happening with AI and, like, chat GPT 4 and the fluency of these chat bots, which is getting to actually be something that, you know, a human might actually want to interact with, and this could really work. Yeah,

Wendy 33:11

I do. I absolutely agree on that. I mean, some of my best experiences with the phone companies has have been with their chat bot. And, wow, much better to talk to the BOP, and it is to, I don't know

Norm 33:22

know if that's a compliment or not, but okay,

Wendy 33:26

depends on the day, but I do think about that with my pharmacy, and as you would think, which one, but also even there, they're getting better at reminding you about your flu shots or a prescription interview or things like that. And that ability to use technology, whether it's high risk my health or a high risk, how much I'm spending on my car, would seem to be where technology beyond the GPS and helping me to get where I need to go is really, is really valuable. So I, you know, that's why I was trying to figure out the connections between the experiences that you've had. The other thing that strikes me, particularly because of the work you did before CVS, you know, from a digital standpoint, is the kind of promotional marketing that certainly this time of the year, those sort of holiday events promotions, to actually buy cars at the end of

Norm 34:17

of they do, right? I was wondering, you know, who puts a bow on a car? But people do, people go, right, well, I suppose, like, that's like a family that I never lived in. But, okay,

Wendy 34:30

whatever, um, now, those sort of things that, you know, you see this sort of activity around seasonal marketing and, yeah, that too is interesting to me. It happens34:40It happens in automotive for sure. End of the year, there's big Memorial Day sales, July 4 sales, this stuff, this stuff does happen, yeah, for sure. And I think it's maybe a confluence of events where everybody starts to have a promotion at the same time, and then it becomes a standardized becomes a standardized thing that you have, that that's a moment that you have an. A promotion.

Wendy 35:00

It's a good old Black Friday, you know, whatever? Yeah, everybody needs a deal or something. So last question. And then as you step back and look at the other side of your life, up until a year ago, and you look at traditional retail,

Wendy 35:16

Do you have a perspective from afar, from Detroit on traditional retail these days, and where the opportunities and challenges are still to come?

Norm 42:41

People still like to shop. I don't think that's going to change. They want to shop for things that excite them, that are fun to shop for in experiences they enjoy. And there are many things that are neither of those, and they just want it cheaply and fastly and fast and with as least amount of effort as possible. And I'd say you kind of have to go to either side of that equation. And as we were thinking, talking today, I started thinking a little bit about the pharmacist in the pharmacies, first of all, mostly lovely people, right? Who really care about people in their communities, and they're working so incredibly hard. The story for a long time had been about how the pharmacist could be your local healthcare provider, you know, this first, first point of contact. And I think that they're qualified to do that, and they could. The problem is that they're so busy, right? I think their substitute for their future is that AI will give me the health answers I need in a much trusted, more trusted way. And so I think that this idea of expertise is is something that those companies need to think about like, well, if, if expertise is like, they're too busy to give it, and I got a good substitute, good like, what's going to happen there, and then, in general, great fun experiences for stuff I like to shop are great. And those things can even be, like, storage containers. They can be in the Container Store, right? There can be stuff. It doesn't have to be like, that's still fun, because you feel like you're going to come home and organize your home place. And that's kind of cool, right? Um, and then making it easy as possible.

Wendy 44:37:26

sometimes, as brands and retailers of any kind, we make it way too hard for people, and we, as those who know the term, they bury the lede, they bury the strength of what they can deliver. And to your point about. Are the issues around cost and, you know, people and all of those things that we, you know, saved us during the pandemic, the only people open, right, the essential retailers and people who gave us vaccines and all of that. And you know, that's when you saw the resonance, not just in the, you know, the drugstore industry at all, but in the grocery industry and the big boxes.

Norm 38:03

So, you know, I had an interesting insight the other day, a contract, when I was at CVS, I wanted to get rid of the carpet, and I was like, all right, and I wanted it to be kind of clean. But then I was in CVS the other day, that carpet, and, you know, this is what I think, Wendy, you've heard from a lot of people. And so in some ways, my comment about interesting and fun is different for different groups of people. And there's a group of people that the carpet is actually very comfortable, the small size of the store is very comforting. And the fact that it's related to health, and that's kind of nice, you know, maybe I'm helping myself. But like, the fact that there's also goodies is great too, because that's a because that's actually what I want. And so there are elements in that that I think you know really knowing who you're going to be interesting and fun to for, and then diving into that might be a really interesting exercise, versus an idea on a bunch of PowerPoint slides,

Wendy 39:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I really think that's true, because sometimes cool and clean and wood floors, and, you know, all of that lighting is very good for some people, but all of a sudden it either makes it look very expensive or very cold, yeah. I think, yeah, yeah, that, yeah, the point, your point is well taken that. It means really staying close to the people who buy yes and services, and not just think about me, me, me. You began this conversation, or part of it talking about transformation leadership. Sometimes I worry a lot that the leaders of companies tend to be very distanced from the people who to whom they sell, and that,

Norm 39:41

yeah, think about the center of gravity. When you're a small company, your entire world is about your customers, so you're entirely customer focused. When you're a large company, your center of gravity moves inside the company, because that's where all your headaches are. Day about what's got to get done and how, but, but with, if you are not incredibly disciplined about it, it is easy to not go see a customer for a year. Yeah? Because there's a true yeah, there's a tremendous amount to do internally. Absolutely, yeah. And we all know that the best moments we have are when we do that ethnography, when we meet with customers, when we see them, and we never forget it, and it drives really good clarity in the future. Artists, yeah, so you've got, you got to be disciplined to do it

Wendy 40:28

Yeah, I think that's, that's the word, you've got to be disciplined to do it, because you're right the burdens of the street, if you're a public company and you're concerned about your shareholders, and the burdens of all the things that are going on inside the inside the office. I it just reminds me, as a last of you know, some of the most successful retailers. I mean, Sam Walton was somebody who, you know, left the paper on the desk and spent all the time in the in the stores, right? Jim Sinegal, one of the founders of Costco, you know, it's about the people in the stores, you know, customers and people who work for you. So for all of us who are passionate about retail and brands and marketing and all of that, just get out from under your desk and go and talk to people in the store, in the cars, right in the cars. So what do you

Norm 41:14

and by the way, Costco is another example of a really fun, interesting experience for a particular segment and a particular moment, but it's defined. And as we all know, their clientele is quite wealthy, and the stuff that can go in there can go in there can be quite high end. We actually have some vehicles in Costco because of that. So, like, it's just, know your value proposition, who it's for, and why they're going to come see you

Wendy 41:36

Yeah, well, it's interesting you say that again. You know, you and I can talk forever. You know, where do you think about going to get new tires? Oh, well, go to Costco, right? You know, get gas. Oh, go to Costco. You know, you get the discount on your through your card membership. Well, of course, it's always wonderful to see you. What are you driving these days?

Norm 41:56

I am driving an Escalade, which is a really nice vehicle. And I will be driving a truck. I've driven trucks for a long time, and they're really great. I mean, when you go inside, when you go inside a truck these days, it's as nice, if it's absolutely as nice, maybe nicer than the SUV. Yeah, and you get the practicality of the truck bed in the back.

Wendy 42:20

I know you're, I know you're lugging trees that you chopped out and you know all of those things, building fences and doing those things that you need a truck for, right? I know that.

Norm 42:30

I know. And you gotta go to Dunkin Donuts too.

Wendy 42:36

The only reason I wouldn't buy a truck is I'd have to leap into it. But all of that anyway, anyway. Listen. It was a pleasure, as always and always. Great insight across the the range of all the experiences you have, but at its heart, I knew that you could add value to our audience for today. So thank you for joining me on Future Shop, and I look forward to seeing you in the future.

Norm 42:58

Thanks so much. It's just such a pleasure seeing you as always.

Wendy 43:01

Cheers for now.

Wendy

So here's the thing. I have to tell you all our How America Shops® work tells us that we need to be thinking about, how do we evolve and transform our businesses? But what Norm said is this is where leadership really matters, the ability to manage the external forces, while innovating, the ability to bring together not only the internal teams, but also the customers we have on that journey. He also talked about all the various tools at hand that journey, that shopper journey, and the key touch points that we have to engage in now, the many more touch points that we have to engage to ensure the shopper is with us on that journey, all the way to sitting in the car, smelling the new leather, thinking about the sound system, or just walking into the pharmacist and wanting to know be reassured that our health will be better and we will feel better about ourselves. it's really important for us to think about it as we transform the future and how we shop and how we buy. So there you go, see you in the future. Cheers for now.